Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
Joel Send a noteboard - 07/05/2011 02:05:02 AM
At the risk of scientific heresy, I dare say it's possible that all roads lead to unfalsifiability, at least for the foreseeable future. However, what I meant was that an exclusively visual search doesn't strike me as the best way to find mass producing/reflecting little or no visual light. If that were the only way to detect mass we wouldn't be having this discussion. A gravitational search seems more promising, particularly when it's such a popular means for detecting potential exotic dark matter.
I'm not sure why you're making this distinction. Smaller MACHOs were ruled out by gravitational lensing searches, and larger MACHOs (which emit some light) were ruled out both by those and by visual searches. The Wikipedia summary describes all of this pretty clearly, and provides several references.
I'm not seeing why larger MACHOs have to emit light (I'm tempted to reference black holes again, but where they fit into the classification of normal/normal dark/exotic dark matter seems ambiguous). Probably just my ignorance showing again, but since stars produce all the heavy nuclei large aggregates of those nuclei, either as nebulae or non-luminous masses, seem viable, especially at the edge of the galaxy. As I understand it, stellar formation is thought to produce energy levels that preclude anything more complex than hydrogen and helium, but if heavier nuclei can exist within old stars it seems like they ought to be able to mass without the force of their compaction reducing them to hydrogen nuclei and ultimately igniting a star. Eliminating MACHOs from the Milky Ways perimeter through gravitational lensing eliminates any other matter as well, but I don't see why it eliminates MACHOs in other locations where gravitational lensing shows dark matter.
The problem is that unless I'm misunderstanding the conclusions MACHOs were ruled out as the primary dark matter because we haven't seen enough gravitational lensing from the perimeter of the Milky Way. That means there's little matter, dark or otherwise, causing lensing there; it doesn't mean MACHOs aren't causing the lensing that IS observed elsewhere. Saying that MACHO theories predict far more of them should surround the Milky Way and thus more lensing should be observed doesn't rule out MACHOs as the primary dark matter; it could just mean that MACHO theories overpredict the number that should exist around the Milky Way, and need refinement, which is still simpler than positing new and exotic types of matter.
We know how much dark matter is needed to explain galactic rotation curves, so MACHO theories cannot simply refine their predictions to be smaller and maintain viability.
You lost me here, sorry. If there's enough gravitational lensing (our main evidence of dark matter, right?) to account for the Milky Ways rotation how can a there be a LACK of such lensing that rules out non-luminous MACHOs? Wouldn't gravitational lensing that rules out one rule out the other?
It may sound odd coming from me, but I'm leery of elevating any part of science to an article of faith, let alone a new one so poorly defined that there are still widely disparate interpretations (I admit I'd never heard of dark galaxies until browsing Wikipedia just now, but if the candidates are being detected by hydrogen emissions that sure sounds like normal baryonic dark matter). Do the research and observations, by all means, and let the chips fall where they may--just don't get so committed to validating the theory that you insist on continuing past the point where it's possible. Let's bear in mind that the whole basis for dark matter, exotic or otherwise, was negative: Not that a new phenomenon motivated a search for its cause, but that measurement of an existing phenomenon didn't conform to theoretical predictions of its magnitude.
You seem to have the impression that scientists are taking dark matter "on faith" and are therefore overly committed to "validating" the theory rather than determining what the evidence shows one way or another. I see no objective justification for this impression; it seems to stem from your own limited knowledge of the existing evidence, as well as a limited knowledge of how scientists actually do research.
It partly stems from that, unquestionably, but it mainly stems from knowing science has an impressive track record of doing that kind of thing. It's tempting to portray Galileos stand against Rome as science vs. religion, but the fact is there were plenty of well established members of the scientific community on the other side of that argument. It was not so much science vs. religion as revolutionary science vs. establishment science; establishment religion just had a vested interest in taking the latters side. Just recently I was reading about Max Planck being told when he started grad school that he was basically wasting his time because physics was a finished field with only a few known minor details left to flesh out fully, and that mindset made quantum mechanics very controversial for some time. Knowing that "quintessence" long flourished as an explanation for light behaving as both wave and particle in the days before duality was conceived makes it natural to worry it might be happpening again (especially, once again, when the same term has been revived with a new application). As you've suggested, I may guilty of my own charge in clinging to non-exotic dark matter, but I'm trying not to get married to either novel or established physics, but stay focused on accurate explanations regardless of source. There's ample precedent to fear such overcommitment; again, I accept your statement that it's not happening because you undeniably have more knowlege on which to judge. That said, I hope you don't mean it CAN'T happen, because expanding knowledge encourages rather than discouraging it.
That's the parallel with theoretical particle physics that makes me nervous; if theory is found wanting reevaluating the theory is at least as justified as trying to patch it. The biggest scientific advances have come from the former, and the last thing any of us wants is a dogmatic refusal to do so that makes exotic dark matter the modern version of epicycles. I'm not opposed to radical reevaluation or even rejection of accepted theory where warranted, but I am opposed to radical and tortuously convoluted variations on it solely to preclude such reevaluation. In a way, that dark matter and dark energy DON'T fundamentally change existing theory is my concern: They add new radical terms to an equation whose results are changing, to prevent changing old standard terms. If the current equations terms don't match the results I prefer reconciling that within existing terms or seeking a new equation rather than simply adding new terms and hoping we someday find proof they actually exist.
Your descriptions in this paragraph are almost entirely hyperbolic. A comparison to epicycles, "dogmatic refusal," "radical and tortuously convoluted," "new radical terms"... come on.
Your preference is irrelevant to true scientific parsimony. We should prefer utilizing existing phenomena to explain new results if and only if such an explanation works just as well as other, more complicated explanations. Decades of research has led to the conclusion that this is not the case for dark matter, period. You seem determined to ignore or marginalize that evidence, but again, that's a problem with you.
I'm not ignoring or marginalizing it, but it still seems inconclusive. If it rules out normal dark matter, which seems to be the case, I accept that correction and apologize for unfounded objections. As I understand the evidence you've presented, however, the case AGAINST normal dark matter is quite strong but the case FOR exotic dark matter much less so.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
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LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Exciting video about the universe
28/04/2011 10:14:55 AM
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I still think dark matter's just non-luminous matter without a convenient light source to reflect.
28/04/2011 10:34:21 PM
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We've just about ruled out the idea that dark matter is just non-luminous "ordinary" matter.
28/04/2011 11:44:34 PM
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I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
29/04/2011 01:52:49 AM
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Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
29/04/2011 02:56:32 AM
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Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
30/04/2011 05:02:49 PM
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Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
30/04/2011 08:56:35 PM
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Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM
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Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM
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There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM
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Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM
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Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM
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Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM
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Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM
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Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM
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The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind.
24/05/2011 10:34:04 PM
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Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind.
24/05/2011 11:08:01 PM
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Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind.
25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM
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Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind.
31/05/2011 09:16:18 AM
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Apologies for the delay; internet's been spotty and I've been busy lately.
10/06/2011 12:09:04 AM
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Re: Apologies for the delay; internet's been spotty and I've been busy lately.
14/06/2011 03:38:18 AM
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Also, re: lensing from ordinary matter:
29/04/2011 05:18:47 AM
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This seems like another example of what confuses the issue.
30/04/2011 05:25:04 PM
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Re: This seems like another example of what confuses the issue.
30/04/2011 08:56:40 PM
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That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
02/05/2011 01:29:03 AM
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Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
04/05/2011 04:18:24 AM
- 725 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
07/05/2011 02:05:02 AM
- 902 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
09/05/2011 11:29:36 PM
- 667 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
14/05/2011 05:35:56 AM
- 950 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
17/05/2011 02:09:55 AM
- 574 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
19/05/2011 02:47:25 AM
- 914 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
24/05/2011 09:46:30 PM
- 699 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
25/05/2011 12:20:10 AM
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Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
31/05/2011 09:16:22 AM
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Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
10/06/2011 12:04:06 AM
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Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
14/06/2011 03:38:12 AM
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Re: I still think... (apparently, there is a 100 character limit on subjects, and yours was 99)
28/04/2011 11:57:15 PM
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Seems to happen to me a lot; sorry.
29/04/2011 12:56:14 AM
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None of this reflects on the actual facts of dark matter.
29/04/2011 01:32:52 AM
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I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes.
30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM
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Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes.
30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM
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Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes.
02/05/2011 01:28:58 AM
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Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes.
04/05/2011 04:18:27 AM
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I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
09/05/2011 11:32:17 PM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
14/05/2011 05:36:24 AM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
17/05/2011 02:10:03 AM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
19/05/2011 04:33:06 AM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
24/05/2011 09:59:38 PM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
24/05/2011 11:19:43 PM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
24/05/2011 11:33:58 PM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
25/05/2011 12:55:36 AM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
31/05/2011 09:16:24 AM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
10/06/2011 12:09:13 AM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
14/06/2011 03:38:05 AM
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Might help if you clarified where your skepticism is at
29/04/2011 02:32:07 AM
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Potentially either, or a combination of the two.
30/04/2011 02:36:50 PM
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It's hard to discuss without knowing your objections a bit more clearly
30/04/2011 04:58:03 PM
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My primary objection is that alternatives to dark matter seem to have been ruled out prematurely.
02/05/2011 01:29:14 AM
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