Active Users:754 Time:22/11/2024 01:32:33 AM
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly Send a noteboard - 04/05/2011 04:18:24 AM
At the risk of scientific heresy, I dare say it's possible that all roads lead to unfalsifiability, at least for the foreseeable future. However, what I meant was that an exclusively visual search doesn't strike me as the best way to find mass producing/reflecting little or no visual light. If that were the only way to detect mass we wouldn't be having this discussion. A gravitational search seems more promising, particularly when it's such a popular means for detecting potential exotic dark matter.


I'm not sure why you're making this distinction. Smaller MACHOs were ruled out by gravitational lensing searches, and larger MACHOs (which emit some light) were ruled out both by those and by visual searches. The Wikipedia summary describes all of this pretty clearly, and provides several references.

The problem is that unless I'm misunderstanding the conclusions MACHOs were ruled out as the primary dark matter because we haven't seen enough gravitational lensing from the perimeter of the Milky Way. That means there's little matter, dark or otherwise, causing lensing there; it doesn't mean MACHOs aren't causing the lensing that IS observed elsewhere. Saying that MACHO theories predict far more of them should surround the Milky Way and thus more lensing should be observed doesn't rule out MACHOs as the primary dark matter; it could just mean that MACHO theories overpredict the number that should exist around the Milky Way, and need refinement, which is still simpler than positing new and exotic types of matter.


We know how much dark matter is needed to explain galactic rotation curves, so MACHO theories cannot simply refine their predictions to be smaller and maintain viability.

It may sound odd coming from me, but I'm leery of elevating any part of science to an article of faith, let alone a new one so poorly defined that there are still widely disparate interpretations (I admit I'd never heard of dark galaxies until browsing Wikipedia just now, but if the candidates are being detected by hydrogen emissions that sure sounds like normal baryonic dark matter). Do the research and observations, by all means, and let the chips fall where they may--just don't get so committed to validating the theory that you insist on continuing past the point where it's possible. Let's bear in mind that the whole basis for dark matter, exotic or otherwise, was negative: Not that a new phenomenon motivated a search for its cause, but that measurement of an existing phenomenon didn't conform to theoretical predictions of its magnitude.


You seem to have the impression that scientists are taking dark matter "on faith" and are therefore overly committed to "validating" the theory rather than determining what the evidence shows one way or another. I see no objective justification for this impression; it seems to stem from your own limited knowledge of the existing evidence, as well as a limited knowledge of how scientists actually do research.

That's the parallel with theoretical particle physics that makes me nervous; if theory is found wanting reevaluating the theory is at least as justified as trying to patch it. The biggest scientific advances have come from the former, and the last thing any of us wants is a dogmatic refusal to do so that makes exotic dark matter the modern version of epicycles. I'm not opposed to radical reevaluation or even rejection of accepted theory where warranted, but I am opposed to radical and tortuously convoluted variations on it solely to preclude such reevaluation. In a way, that dark matter and dark energy DON'T fundamentally change existing theory is my concern: They add new radical terms to an equation whose results are changing, to prevent changing old standard terms. If the current equations terms don't match the results I prefer reconciling that within existing terms or seeking a new equation rather than simply adding new terms and hoping we someday find proof they actually exist.


Your descriptions in this paragraph are almost entirely hyperbolic. A comparison to epicycles, "dogmatic refusal," "radical and tortuously convoluted," "new radical terms"... come on.

Your preference is irrelevant to true scientific parsimony. We should prefer utilizing existing phenomena to explain new results if and only if such an explanation works just as well as other, more complicated explanations. Decades of research has led to the conclusion that this is not the case for dark matter, period. You seem determined to ignore or marginalize that evidence, but again, that's a problem with you.
Reply to message
Exciting video about the universe - 28/04/2011 10:14:55 AM 1090 Views
Cool, and true *NM* - 28/04/2011 11:46:29 AM 332 Views
I still think dark matter's just non-luminous matter without a convenient light source to reflect. - 28/04/2011 10:34:21 PM 817 Views
We've just about ruled out the idea that dark matter is just non-luminous "ordinary" matter. - 28/04/2011 11:44:34 PM 748 Views
I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 29/04/2011 01:52:49 AM 680 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 29/04/2011 02:56:32 AM 793 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 30/04/2011 05:02:49 PM 748 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 30/04/2011 08:56:35 PM 619 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM 653 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM 758 Views
There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM 829 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM 673 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM 618 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM 707 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM 627 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM 705 Views
The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 24/05/2011 10:34:04 PM 647 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 24/05/2011 11:08:01 PM 855 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM 667 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 31/05/2011 09:16:18 AM 736 Views
Also, re: lensing from ordinary matter: - 29/04/2011 05:18:47 AM 681 Views
This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. - 30/04/2011 05:25:04 PM 800 Views
Re: This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. - 30/04/2011 08:56:40 PM 771 Views
That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". - 02/05/2011 01:29:03 AM 764 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". - 04/05/2011 04:18:24 AM 726 Views
Re: I still think... (apparently, there is a 100 character limit on subjects, and yours was 99) - 28/04/2011 11:57:15 PM 999 Views
Seems to happen to me a lot; sorry. - 29/04/2011 12:56:14 AM 697 Views
None of this reflects on the actual facts of dark matter. - 29/04/2011 01:32:52 AM 662 Views
I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM 780 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM 614 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 02/05/2011 01:28:58 AM 1131 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 04/05/2011 04:18:27 AM 657 Views
I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. - 07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM 849 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. - 09/05/2011 11:32:17 PM 775 Views

Reply to Message