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It certainly doesn't mean you can't make conclusions. Tom Send a noteboard - 12/04/2011 08:09:41 PM
For me, there are certain experiences that cannot be adequately explained through a traditional understanding of space, time, life and death. The fact that we are unable to measure them does not mean they are not affecting us. An (admittedly imperfect) analogy would be a blind person unable to prove the sun exists. Yes, he can step outside and feel warmth, but he can do that on cloudy days or even at night in the summer.

I realize that of course the sun is easier to measure and quantify, but that is perhaps because there are plenty of people who aren't blind. Imagine, however, a force that none of us are able to sense well, but that some people sense in little isolated instances. Measuring this force would be difficult because observation would not be consistent enough.

Taking this sense that people have of the divine and writing "conclusive" books about these experiences is sheer folly and leads to the oppression of religious dogma. On the other hand...how do I explain the dreams that come true? My friend continues to tell people how I told him, in the Summer of 2001, that he should move out of downtown NY because I dreamt of a major terrorist attack and told him about it. Why did I tell him in the first place? Because I had a dream, exactly one week before the event, that detailed a friend's fatal car accident, down to the road, the weather conditions, and the fact that the friend had been secretly dating another friend of mine. I told my friend living downtown about this dream and he said, "Tell me if you ever dream about something that could affect me." I also dreamed, a few months before it happened, that I was standing in Manhattan and looking at the river and a plane was floating down it. I told my friends about this one, and when that plane landed in the Hudson my friends looked at me.

Is that evidence of God? Certainly not, at least not in a scientific sense. Do I feel that there is "something" that is going on that I can't fully appreciate? Certainly. Additional anecdotal evidence through history shows that I am not alone in seeing dreams as having some sort of meaning.

I'm not ready to draw specific conclusions, but I'm very interested in attempts to investigate, in a serious manner, these sorts of "spiritual" events.

Of course, the only reason I wouldn't recommend going from agnostic to atheist is that it's a bit depressing. However, it's certainly a reasonable step if you're that convinced. Just don't let your conviction close your eyes to anomalies in the world around you!
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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Questions about souls... - 12/04/2011 03:06:54 AM 2330 Views
Re: Questions about souls... - 12/04/2011 03:23:00 AM 1305 Views
All right. - 12/04/2011 05:50:08 AM 1290 Views
Re: Questions about souls... - 12/04/2011 06:27:14 AM 1266 Views
It would really depend on the mechanism - 12/04/2011 06:28:24 AM 1155 Views
You assume we all know, and agree on, what "soul" means. - 12/04/2011 08:42:47 AM 1180 Views
It is what hope, which is a thing with feathers, perches on. - 12/04/2011 07:32:07 PM 1256 Views
But seriously, what does it do? - 12/04/2011 11:01:58 PM 1252 Views
It makes poems pretty. - 13/04/2011 07:00:03 PM 1259 Views
Re: Yeah, exactly. - 15/04/2011 02:43:24 AM 1228 Views
Just going off the 'reborn' thing.. - 12/04/2011 08:53:28 AM 1157 Views
Hm. - 12/04/2011 03:22:01 PM 1258 Views
Agreed. - 12/04/2011 05:49:11 PM 1131 Views
it wouldn't change much for me, but I'm pretty flexible in my spiritual beliefs - 12/04/2011 04:23:34 PM 1285 Views
This. *NM* - 13/04/2011 04:15:11 PM 660 Views
Re: Questions about souls... - 12/04/2011 05:44:53 PM 1362 Views
What a fantasy. - 12/04/2011 07:57:38 PM 1215 Views
What happened to two? *NM* - 12/04/2011 08:20:41 PM 694 Views
Thanks, I fixed it. *NM* - 12/04/2011 08:29:20 PM 676 Views
Your comments, or mine? - 13/04/2011 01:24:53 AM 1684 Views
You get one guess. - 13/04/2011 07:09:01 PM 1401 Views
One dismissive answer deserves another. - 24/04/2011 12:54:44 AM 1289 Views
I'm a Christian who is partial to reincarnation, so I do not think much would change. - 12/04/2011 06:21:36 PM 1227 Views
*is disappointed* *NM* - 12/04/2011 08:01:05 PM 597 Views
You'd be surprised how frequently I get that from both sides. - 12/04/2011 08:22:24 PM 1198 Views
I bet you do! - 12/04/2011 08:47:59 PM 1173 Views
Re: I bet you do! - 13/04/2011 04:02:07 AM 1187 Views
Does it really? - 24/04/2011 01:09:34 AM 1107 Views
OMG! - 14/04/2011 06:19:50 PM 1193 Views
Go expand his worldview. *NM* - 14/04/2011 06:56:03 PM 625 Views
I think we are similar in some respects philosophically. - 13/04/2011 05:59:38 AM 1161 Views
Who says.... - 13/04/2011 07:11:24 PM 1123 Views
So then my question is.... - 13/04/2011 07:08:42 PM 1111 Views
Because I believe that Jesus was an incarnation of the λόγος. - 14/04/2011 12:36:36 AM 1156 Views
*heh* - 14/04/2011 04:12:32 PM 1259 Views
I think I answered it pretty clearly in my post title. *NM* - 14/04/2011 06:59:47 PM 678 Views
Actually, you didn't. - 15/04/2011 12:12:42 AM 1219 Views
Re: Actually, you didn't. - 24/04/2011 09:04:04 AM 1202 Views
I think that, like a lot of other people responding, I would want and need more information. - 12/04/2011 07:13:14 PM 1158 Views
Speaking of the agnostic/atheist thing - 12/04/2011 07:40:04 PM 1219 Views
99% that there is no God... - 12/04/2011 08:08:42 PM 1248 Views
Technically, no, atheists simply lack belief in a God. - 12/04/2011 08:19:15 PM 1200 Views
Whoah there, - 12/04/2011 08:26:43 PM 1158 Views
Okay, I have to admit I wasn't expecting to get called out on that. - 13/04/2011 04:03:08 AM 1269 Views
no I think that's just the literal definition... - 12/04/2011 11:19:18 PM 1098 Views
Isn't that what "technically" would imply? - 13/04/2011 04:04:42 AM 1309 Views
It certainly doesn't mean you can't make conclusions. - 12/04/2011 08:09:41 PM 1295 Views
Re: Campbell: - 12/04/2011 08:42:09 PM 1267 Views
Self-identification is an interesting point here. - 12/04/2011 09:00:46 PM 1218 Views
Re: Agree - 12/04/2011 09:22:22 PM 1218 Views
Answers. - 12/04/2011 09:05:38 PM 1160 Views
That's not a compelling counter-argument for me. - 12/04/2011 11:22:21 PM 1346 Views
Never mind. - 12/04/2011 11:34:46 PM 1138 Views
be sure to post if it does happen *NM* - 12/04/2011 11:56:17 PM 618 Views
Have you had any vivid dreams that came true? - 13/04/2011 01:16:59 AM 1098 Views
My mom used to have dreams like that, usually about relatives. - 13/04/2011 02:25:45 AM 1311 Views
I can easily believe that. - 13/04/2011 06:14:51 AM 1124 Views
Minivans can fit lots of useful stuffs, like furniture. *NM* - 13/04/2011 03:47:04 PM 674 Views
So can gas-guzzling SUVs, and full trucks. *NM* - 13/04/2011 05:13:20 PM 628 Views
for that matter, you can fit a surprising amount even in a baby truck! *NM* - 13/04/2011 06:36:58 PM 609 Views
I'd find it quite comforting - 12/04/2011 07:40:09 PM 1155 Views
Well, as I said in my census form on Sunday - 12/04/2011 08:36:05 PM 1289 Views
Pythagoras was a total nut. - 12/04/2011 10:05:42 PM 1250 Views
True - 12/04/2011 10:13:43 PM 1142 Views
It would upset my belief in science - 12/04/2011 09:39:39 PM 1304 Views
There's so much wrong with that statement. - 12/04/2011 09:55:45 PM 1307 Views
If science proved there really was an Easter Bunny would it affect your believe in science? *NM* - 12/04/2011 10:30:09 PM 723 Views
*is both bored and annoyed* - 12/04/2011 11:03:10 PM 1167 Views
right. - 12/04/2011 11:18:31 PM 1363 Views
and what if science proved that science was false? - 12/04/2011 11:48:32 PM 1248 Views
I think that's kind of the point; it can't. - 13/04/2011 01:33:44 AM 1115 Views
Did you read my original post? - 13/04/2011 03:13:34 AM 1082 Views
I did, yes. - 13/04/2011 03:32:18 AM 1118 Views
Yes it would upset my belief in science, why is that so hard to accept - 13/04/2011 01:56:59 PM 1242 Views
What's a soul? - 12/04/2011 10:51:39 PM 1145 Views
I can only give you my personal take. - 13/04/2011 01:47:39 AM 1269 Views
so did this guy took a railroad spike through the head - 13/04/2011 01:58:52 PM 1297 Views
Nah, he just got someone else's added to him. But now Ruin can influence him. *NM* - 13/04/2011 06:38:31 PM 678 Views
Thanks a lot - 13/04/2011 07:02:29 PM 1147 Views
No. - 23/04/2011 09:15:16 PM 1163 Views
but we know personality can be draticaly altered by physical means - 24/04/2011 03:28:36 AM 1490 Views
"We" don't know that; that's the problem. - 24/04/2011 07:02:49 AM 1319 Views
Can one have an identity without memory? *NM* - 13/04/2011 03:46:16 PM 647 Views
Sure. - 23/04/2011 08:53:51 PM 987 Views
Re: My question about souls: who will save your souuuuls? *NM* - 13/04/2011 04:04:21 AM 647 Views
I would becoming interested in tracing people's souls across time/space - 13/04/2011 04:00:51 PM 1146 Views
Re: I would becoming interested in tracing people's souls across time/space - 14/04/2011 03:29:55 AM 1234 Views
Sorry :-) - 14/04/2011 10:15:30 AM 1229 Views
Interesting concept.... - 13/04/2011 07:28:42 PM 1144 Views
Heh. Loose faith. - 14/04/2011 02:32:27 AM 1129 Views
It kinda still works though....doesn't it? - 14/04/2011 04:14:19 PM 1154 Views
it does work. well in fact! *NM* - 24/04/2011 03:24:25 AM 656 Views
Oooh... - 14/04/2011 04:31:30 AM 1209 Views
Who says..... - 14/04/2011 04:26:31 PM 1271 Views
Wow, thanks for all the responses!! - 14/04/2011 03:42:38 AM 1295 Views

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