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Next time I'm defending you against charges of elitism remind me to forget this exchange. Joel Send a noteboard - 28/03/2011 08:38:10 PM
theologically, Solomon is clearly held up as the greatest, wisest and holiest of Israels kings--and simultaneously the principal cause, through his multitude of foreign wives and concubines, of Israeles civil war and the ultimate destruction of both Israel and Judah.

No he most certainly is not. His promiscuity is held up as an example of what he did wrong and he is seen not as the holiest of kings. Josiah clearly and unequivocally holds that role. Solomon was also never considered the greatest king of the House of David. It's called the House of David for a reason, that reason being that David was its greatest king. His wisdom and his construction of the Temple save him from more damning criticism.

It was called the House of David because David sired the entire royal line; no one speaks (or spoke) of the House of Saul dying on Mt. Gilboa because of Sauls great piety and nobility, y'know. Solomons fondness for women is certainly referenced repeatedly in the bible, but also the one large flaw in an otherwise flawless, exemplary, record. If that disqualifies him from paragon status it disqualifies his father as well, or Solomon would never have been born; he may have liked women, but I've never heard of him having someone killed to get one. According to the biblical text, his wisdom was a divine gift--and accompanied by wealth and power because he asked for wisdom instead of those things. He built the Temple because God forbade David to do so due to the blood on his hands, but the same text that makes that claim also claims that the Temple was built under Solomon and consecrated with the Presence of God upon its completion. That's not to say Josiah wasn't a paragon in his own right, especially among Rehoboams successors (though Hezekiah seems as worthy of respect) but construction of the Temple seems seems not a cause of the towering position Solomon yet retains in all Abrahamic religions, but a symptom of the overall piety responsible for both the Temple and Solomons stature.
Let's not kid ourselves; Jews were forbidden from consorting with "Pole Dancers for Tammuz" not just because of the momentary act of worship involved, but because there was little doubt how the children of such dalliances would be raised. That (and money, and PR) is the practical basis for temple prostitutes turning sex into worship, and for Jews being forbidden to indulge in it with them.

So you say with no evidence whatsoever to back you up. To the contrary, if your unsubstantiated guess were the case, then common prostitution would be made illegal as well, which it was decidedly not. Not once in the Torah is there an injunction against consorting with common prostitutes.

Right; it's just adultery for a married man to have sex with anyone but his wife (though if I understood what you said below you're saying it's ALL adultery, because the concept of "fornication" is a later development), unmarried women are stoned or burned alive if discovered not to be virgins when wed (for "playing the harlot in her fathers house", as I believe it's translated in English) and unmarried men who have sex with unmarried women must pay the bride price to the father AND marry them, irrevocably. Prostitution isn't forbidden as such, but it's hard to find a way to engage in prostitution that isn't forbidden; it's not as if incidents like what happened with Tamar (which is mentioned before the written law was supposed to have been recorded anyway) condone prostitution. When did you become such a biblical literalist and, perhaps more importantly, how does that square with your apparent attitude toward fundamentalists? ;) There's ample evidence on how the written law handled the issue: The written law itself, which may not attack prostitution directly, but has it bracketed with fire pretty well.
It's also the basis for the well documented genocide (which, while I'm not endorsing it, was hardly novel or remarkable for Bronze Age conquerors). They call it ethnic cleansing for a reason, and while that does nothing to legitimize it does a lot to explain it.

Well-documented? By what? The Torah? Are you really going to fall into the silly habit that uneducated evangelicals are partial to, of confusing the Bible's accounts for history? Fictional genocides of fictional tribes (the children of Israel killing the Amalekites, for example) does not make "well-documented genocide". Even the Assyrians didn't commit genocide, though they did force peoples to leave their homes, which was a common Assyrian practice but not a common practice generally. There were lots of statements on stelae that were meant to frighten people, but the evidence is against actual genocides. Trees, Kings and Politics by Barbara Porter has an excellent essay about how the messages written by the Assyrian kings changed from place to place. I'm not aware of many instances in antiquity when genocide was actually practiced - perhaps the Athenians in the Peloponnesian War. And another thing - EVEN IF you're going to take the Bible itself as history (which is in itself laughable), apparently Israel didn't finish the job with the Amalekites in the Torah like they said they did, because they appear again later in the Bible. Oops. Guess some got away.

Suddenly the text as written that was so important to recall in the last paragraph is "the silly habit that uneducated evangelicals are partial to"? Careful now; changing horses in midstream like that is a good way to drown. :P You know the ancient drill: Kill all "men" (any boy old enough to carry a spear), impregnate all the women, carry the able bodies off as slaves and salt the earth so anyone who manages to survive has no way to grow food. Are you saying that's all just falsified intimidation combined with embellishments centuries later? Sprang forth fully formed like some R rated Athena? Assyria doesn't seem to have engaged in that much, but genocide via relocation and assimiliation rather than mass slaughter and enslavement was one of the biggest Assyrian contributions to ancient culture. The way I recall the biblical text we're selectively treating as an authority that's how Israel ENDED, not how it began, and the land hungry Israelites didn't have many places to send conquered people at the birth of their nation regardless.
Whether the sin of Onan was masturbation or refusing his duties under Levirate marriage most definitely can be and is argued, but on the principle of procreation in general and promulgating the Hebrew faith specifically, I think it's another case where all roads lead to Rome. While the Tanakh condemns neither anal nor oral sex themselves EXPLICITLY, the context of all the other prohibitions against sexual acts that hinder the preservation and growth of Jewish culture and faith strongly imply that they're not really acceptable either, if not necessarily "sinful", as such.

Actually, no, that's not true. While having children is one of the prime virtues in Judaism, there is absolutely no writing from the period that would in any way impute a particular mandate that only that sex which can lead to children is permitted. Not only that, but Judaism as it has developed has a much more "enlightened" view of sex than many Christian denominations. Sex is for pleasure and intimacy, a way of bonding, and sex is expressly permitted when conception is not possible, such as during a woman's pregnancy. The only times a woman is regularly unclean is during her period and immediately following childbirth (for 40 days). This contradicts what you're saying. The whole digression on trying to ascertain paternity is irrelevant; all cultures have historically been obsessed with that and it doesn't necessarily lead to any particular outcome that would somehow justify your position.

It leads to "fallen women", babies christened with their fathers surnames and fathers until recently able to deny undeniable parternity (and the consequent obligations). When most property is owned by men who can never be nearly as certain of their childrens paternity as the mother, society will inevitably develop customs and laws to help compensate for those facts. That tendency is even stronger when the society in question is a relatively small one and thus deeply concerned with preserving its unique cultural identity while surrounded by very different and far more numerous neighbors. That doesn't mean it will make child bearing the sole acceptable purpose of sex, and I agree that the bible very clearly does nothing of the sort, but it does tend to make reproductive potential a requirement. Stable families are also required or at least encouraged, of course, or we'd probably have a Torah that says something more like "have sex with as many women as possible as often as possible but make sure they're all Jews". Ritual purity, incidentally, strikes me as more of a sanitary than a reproductive issue; the priests didn't want blood from anything but the sacrifices in the Temple, and Israel on the march didn't want it all over the camp attracting every scavenger and predator for miles.
This is the part I meant was oversimplified; the Tanakh doesn't give a free pass for "mere" fornication instead of adultery, as we both also know. In fact, a man having sex with an unmarried woman was not only required to marry her, it was the only case I know of where divorce was legally impossible, even under the Tanakhs otherwise notoriously lax divorce laws.

Quit misusing the term Tanakh. The only part of the Old Testament that was Law was the Torah.

We've had this discussion; I used the broader term because of the context and examples drawn from parts of the bible other than the Torah proper (which doesn't mention David or Solomon once). The Prophets referenced, reinforced and relied on the Torah throughout their writings, and even speaking of "the Law and the Prophets" doesn't really cover the whole of the OT. Since we've been discussing more than the Torah itself it didn't seem proper to refer by name to it alone.
There is no concept such as "fornication" in the Old Testament, and our concept of fornication is one that developed in the Middle Ages. The New Testament use of the term was regarding the use of prostitutes (porneia). Please find one place in the Old Testament where "fornication" is mentioned. You won't be able to, because it doesn't exist. There are a few references to "whoring" but if you're reading that to mean sex outside marriage you're overlaying a meaning that wasn't there. Even Paul said "it is better that you be married" for sex. It was a later extrapolation of Paul, the Gospels and a bunch of other passages that led to this determination.

Furthermore, your assertion about sex with an unmarried woman is patently false and has been disproven on numerous occasions. Stupid Christians mention it because they are stupid and ignorant. In reality, it talks about having sex with a virgin who is still in her father's house. Essentially, by deflowering her he decreased her value to her family, so it was a form of property theft. Likewise, the passage that allows a non-virgin sold as one to be returned with restitution of the dowry - it was a form of fraud in a sale. However, it is clear from passages all throughout the entirety of the Tanakh (as an example one can reference the whole Tanakh, but not when attempting to codify law), over and over, that there were divorced women who lived on their own, women who were widows but hadn't remarried and plenty of other women who for one reason or other were not under the power of a man. Sex with these women, as well as sex with common prostitutes or one's own slaves, was not prohibited by the Torah.

Even slaves as laborers were, at least on paper, more than mere property but, yes, the concept of concubines is well established in the bible and elsewhere, and adding a female member to ones household as far less than a wife doesn't represent adultery (if we're accepting that "fornication" didn't exist as a concept, presumably there's no reason to address that). An unmarried woman was assumed to be a virgin until proven otherwise, and killed if found to BE otherwise, which should make the general attitude on extra-marital (including pre-marital) sex clear. That's about more than property rights; no sane person deals with damaged property by destroying it. Both divorced women and widows were previously married, and sex with their husbands wasn't adultery, but I missed the part in Ruth where she's held up as a virtuous woman providing for her family through noble prostitution (but only with unmarried men, of course). If memory serves, that book ends with a marriage.

We both know you can't create a legal system that specifically and explicitly addresses every contingency, and simply saying, "x is illegal" isn't enough because of the need to define what does and does not constitue x. Consequently and unsurprisingly the Torah seems better understood as a general overview of the law with many particular examples to illustrate the spirit; were it a simple checklist of what accused criminals either did or did not do Israel wouldn't have needed Judges. Thus prostitution isn't explicitly forbidden, but most of the ways it can occur are at some point in the text. The omission of any reference to female homosexuality (which, after all, is how this discussion began) is still a glaring oversight; the closest the ????????? ,??????? OR ?????????? come to anything like that is discussion of MALE homosexuality, and women are not men (a fact of which the Torah seems QUITE aware).

For the record, I do consider myself an "evangelical" Christian because of this thing called "the Great Commission". I prefer the term "fundamentalist" for the kind of Christians you have in mind, both because it's more informative and because I resent and refuse to accept their implication that they're the only "real" Christians. Also for the record, calling people "stupid" twice in the same sentence is a good example of what I (and not only I) mean when we suggest it's not in RAFOs best interest to come off like an insular clannish antisocial "community" that looks at everyone but its first order of humans like, well, like fundies look at other Christians as well as non-Christians. ;)
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LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 28/03/2011 at 09:22:59 PM
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Which apostles of Jesus Christ have you known? In the biblical sense, of course. - 23/03/2011 04:52:48 AM 1591 Views
About as close as I can get it is a Mary *NM* - 23/03/2011 04:55:10 AM 284 Views
Yeah... Inequality and discrimination is so annoying! - 23/03/2011 05:10:48 AM 645 Views
most of them don't even have decent female versions to use *NM* - 23/03/2011 01:10:15 PM 302 Views
Slutty. I like it *NM* - 23/03/2011 05:10:03 AM 335 Views
lol, how many apostles do you think is slutty? *NM* - 23/03/2011 05:11:37 AM 401 Views
Depends. How many you been with? *NM* - 23/03/2011 05:12:28 AM 390 Views
My answer. - 23/03/2011 05:14:54 AM 878 Views
Oh prude! 12 would have been a much sexier answer *NM* - 23/03/2011 05:19:45 AM 1297 Views
Where is the line between prude and slut? *NM* - 23/03/2011 05:34:57 AM 389 Views
Sorry, trade secret. *NM* - 23/03/2011 05:37:46 AM 406 Views
Darn! - 23/03/2011 05:44:33 AM 842 Views
My challenge to you... - 23/03/2011 06:39:06 AM 753 Views
You don't get to give me challenges. - 23/03/2011 03:09:10 PM 697 Views
Of course I do - 23/03/2011 08:34:29 PM 623 Views
I think it's related to statistical significance. *NM* - 23/03/2011 10:55:26 AM 381 Views
Also, 12 would mean that there was a Judas. - 23/03/2011 05:56:59 AM 612 Views
oh man, i gotta remember dude's names? - 23/03/2011 05:44:06 AM 872 Views
What do you mean, "maybe"? - 23/03/2011 05:46:54 AM 847 Views
Yeah, you're winning so far. *NM* - 23/03/2011 10:54:16 AM 408 Views
You know, Joshua and Jesus are the same name. - 23/03/2011 06:54:52 AM 716 Views
Good point. Joshua/Josh counts. *NM* - 23/03/2011 03:55:11 PM 414 Views
How can they have English names, when English didn't even exist yet!?! *NM* - 23/03/2011 08:56:09 AM 411 Views
God must be a forward thinker. *NM* - 23/03/2011 09:34:07 AM 290 Views
Different ethnic versions of the names are fine. *NM* - 23/03/2011 03:12:18 PM 389 Views
Joshua = Jesus. According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal - 24/03/2011 10:08:27 PM 644 Views
Because cleary, God is a Brit. - 24/03/2011 12:40:28 PM 683 Views
My response. - 23/03/2011 10:53:06 AM 778 Views
1.5 - 23/03/2011 02:43:46 PM 789 Views
Why? - 23/03/2011 03:15:23 PM 705 Views
lol, I'm sorry, that just got a lot funnier than I had expected it to. - 23/03/2011 03:25:38 PM 877 Views
Then it doesn't count. - 23/03/2011 03:53:55 PM 763 Views
Have a John is better than none...? *MN* - 27/03/2011 03:42:09 AM 655 Views
Half a John, hahaha. Classic *NM* - 23/03/2011 03:55:37 PM 386 Views
*NM* - 24/03/2011 01:34:40 AM 345 Views
*NM* - 24/03/2011 12:00:03 PM 386 Views
In a strictly Biblical sense, it's the men who do the "knowing" and women who are "known". *NM* - 23/03/2011 10:20:34 PM 369 Views
"How many apostles have known you?" Fantastic. *NM* - 23/03/2011 11:05:25 PM 406 Views
LOL. *NM* - 24/03/2011 04:12:21 AM 388 Views
Do women get to know anything then? *NM* - 24/03/2011 04:25:24 AM 359 Views
Can they know themselves? *NM* - 24/03/2011 04:31:24 AM 411 Views
Good question. According to Biblical scholar Richard Elliott Friedman: - 24/03/2011 01:36:56 PM 738 Views
That seems over simplified in a few areas, though I've always agreed with the, er, "main thrust". - 27/03/2011 05:13:14 AM 929 Views
What a terribly thought-out and absolutely groundless response you have shat out. - 28/03/2011 05:56:56 AM 936 Views
Next time I'm defending you against charges of elitism remind me to forget this exchange. - 28/03/2011 08:38:10 PM 538 Views
I never asked you to defend me against charges of elitism; I am an elitist. - 29/03/2011 12:55:12 AM 954 Views
Hahaha, no kidding. *NM* - 29/03/2011 03:56:43 AM 273 Views
Also, John and Jonathan are not the same name. - 24/03/2011 02:48:49 AM 618 Views
Well Tom, if you've *been known* by both a John and a Jonathan, my hat's off to you. - 24/03/2011 04:11:49 AM 644 Views
I have come into the world, but the world has known me not. - 24/03/2011 01:43:36 PM 719 Views
Nice *NM* - 25/03/2011 10:19:37 PM 376 Views
Which is why "Johnathan", "Jonathon" and the like are such abominable names. *NM* - 25/03/2011 07:41:02 PM 397 Views
I hate it when people of the same ethnicity have different spellings of essentially the same name. *NM* - 25/03/2011 10:20:32 PM 404 Views
Алина, Алена, Елена really bothers me - 25/03/2011 11:42:56 PM 740 Views
Americans still have that "official name vs. everyday-use name" thing to a very large degree. - 26/03/2011 12:08:26 AM 815 Views
Germans do it. - 26/03/2011 12:20:21 AM 657 Views
I think you'll find they do it rather less these days. - 26/03/2011 12:31:54 AM 762 Views
I think you may be misunderstanding the concept of nicknames. - 26/03/2011 04:17:09 PM 631 Views
I have known people who did it - 29/03/2011 05:41:32 PM 581 Views
Actually, all Slavic languages do it extensively. - 26/03/2011 12:29:39 AM 701 Views
My experience with Slavic languages is extremely limited, but... - 26/03/2011 12:44:19 AM 580 Views
But "Tom" isn't a proper name. - 26/03/2011 01:53:38 PM 666 Views
For a lot of people it is. - 26/03/2011 04:52:57 PM 804 Views
Hoi polloi do a lot of idiotic things. - 26/03/2011 04:58:46 PM 736 Views
Oh that's not that bad! - 26/03/2011 03:48:05 PM 712 Views
Well, you're in luck! - 26/03/2011 04:52:18 PM 627 Views
But I can't! - 26/03/2011 05:13:20 PM 593 Views
Sure you can - 26/03/2011 05:56:10 PM 636 Views
But... - 28/03/2011 07:28:17 PM 756 Views
But "Anya" only has a meaning as a short form of Anna. - 29/03/2011 05:29:33 PM 558 Views
None - 24/03/2011 03:15:50 AM 632 Views
Awww. - 24/03/2011 04:30:09 AM 809 Views
I guess I haven't gone the apostle route - 24/03/2011 01:48:48 PM 688 Views
Re: I guess I haven't gone the apostle route - 24/03/2011 09:59:17 PM 643 Views
Are there more Peters, or are Peters more likely to get laid? *NM* - 25/03/2011 06:08:51 AM 400 Views
Re: Are there more Peters, or are Peters more likely to get laid? - 25/03/2011 11:10:47 AM 742 Views
I had no idea! - 26/03/2011 04:28:06 PM 729 Views
It's never too late! *NM* - 25/03/2011 06:42:01 PM 382 Views
Ah, I'm probably going to be known by only one man for the rest of my life - 26/03/2011 04:27:41 PM 684 Views
Well then maybe it is too late *NM* - 26/03/2011 05:25:46 PM 322 Views
Yeah, most likely :-) it's actually quite nice to be honest. *NM* - 26/03/2011 05:52:37 PM 408 Views
Best I can do - 28/03/2011 07:01:17 AM 760 Views
That's awesome. - 28/03/2011 07:25:46 PM 790 Views

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