That seems over simplified in a few areas, though I've always agreed with the, er, "main thrust".
Joel Send a noteboard - 27/03/2011 05:13:14 AM
The prohibition on homosexual sex in the Hebrew Old Testament is restricted to male-male contact only. Because having multiple wives is permitted in the Torah (as evidenced by the statement that you shall not take a mother and daughter both as wives, or competing sisters - something to keep in mind in this polyamorous world we know as NY ), the Hebrew laws would have had something to say about permitted touching among women because simultaneous sex would be assumed to be at least a theoretical possibility.
The fact that no statement is made about this means that, essentially, (1) lesbian sex and (2) female masturbation are permitted. It may be that they're permitted because no one really thought about women when writing the laws - they were by men, for men and with men in mind.
It could also be that, since the main interests of the society were propagation of offspring and knowing the paternity of any children, those two acts were considered irrelevant as long as the man was doing his procreational duty. I think it's less likely that the latter was the reason, though, because there is no injunction against heterosexual oral or anal sex in the Old Testament, and it can be argued whether or not the "sin of Onan" was the actual act of male masturbation or the failure of Onan to perform the required Levirate marriage sexual acts.
The fact that no statement is made about this means that, essentially, (1) lesbian sex and (2) female masturbation are permitted. It may be that they're permitted because no one really thought about women when writing the laws - they were by men, for men and with men in mind.
It could also be that, since the main interests of the society were propagation of offspring and knowing the paternity of any children, those two acts were considered irrelevant as long as the man was doing his procreational duty. I think it's less likely that the latter was the reason, though, because there is no injunction against heterosexual oral or anal sex in the Old Testament, and it can be argued whether or not the "sin of Onan" was the actual act of male masturbation or the failure of Onan to perform the required Levirate marriage sexual acts.
It's always seemed like those were the only two real possibilities, and that they both lead to the same place by different paths: The Tanakh is at worst indifferent to and possibly even condones lesbians, despite condeming homosexual MEN harshly, one of the few cases of an apparent gender distinction that favors women.
HOWEVER, I've also long thought procreation the driving issue, particularly for a relatively small (by most accounts, immigrant) population with a unique culture radically different from the native neighoring ones in religious and other aspects. It's the same principle we see in the prohibition against marrying non-Jews; theologically, Solomon is clearly held up as the greatest, wisest and holiest of Israels kings--and simultaneously the principal cause, through his multitude of foreign wives and concubines, of Israeles civil war and the ultimate destruction of both Israel and Judah. Let's not kid ourselves; Jews were forbidden from consorting with "Pole Dancers for Tammuz" not just because of the momentary act of worship involved, but because there was little doubt how the children of such dalliances would be raised. That (and money, and PR) is the practical basis for temple prostitutes turning sex into worship, and for Jews being forbidden to indulge in it with them.
It's also the basis for the well documented genocide (which, while I'm not endorsing it, was hardly novel or remarkable for Bronze Age conquerors). They call it ethnic cleansing for a reason, and while that does nothing to legitimize it does a lot to explain it. At that time at that place leaving a defeated but nonetheless implaccable foe to lick its wounds while you carried away their wealth and left their men dead did little but ensure those dead mens children would come seeking vengeance in a generation. There were plenty of Mesopotamian Vercingetorixes around to illustrate what a bad idea that was (the Jews themselves were subjugated many times only to return from the ashes and present a mortal threat to past conquerors).
Whether the sin of Onan was masturbation or refusing his duties under Levirate marriage most definitely can be and is argued, but on the principle of procreation in general and promulgating the Hebrew faith specifically, I think it's another case where all roads lead to Rome. While the Tanakh condemns neither anal nor oral sex themselves EXPLICITLY, the context of all the other prohibitions against sexual acts that hinder the preservation and growth of Jewish culture and faith strongly imply that they're not really acceptable either, if not necessarily "sinful", as such. It's all of a piece; even the male oriented perspective of the Tanakh, IMHO, has as much to do with the far greater difficulty of determining paternity rather than maternity. You tell me: As a lawyer, would you say our culture of "male-fascism" recognizes parental rights more for mothers, or fathers? Who's body and consequent choice do we consider in abortion laws, for example, and who usually gets primary custody of children in divorce proceedings? Whose biological as well cultural links to children would it be more difficult to safeguard in a culture that didn't even know about DNA or genes, much less how to do a paternity test? Ever heard of a "maternity test"?
With all that in mind, it still seems pretty clear that there's no prohibition against lesbians or female masturbation until Paul, but, once again, that conclusion seems inevitable on the basis of the text however we approach it.
I tend to think that it was because the Torah is a male-oriented work of literature. After all, the definition of "adultery" is when a man has sex with another man's wife or a woman has sex with someone who isn't her husband. This sly definition thus allows married men to have sex with prostitutes (as long as they're not temple prostitutes, which would make the sex act a consecrated offering to a foreign god! ), unmarried women, random girls they pick up on the road to Bethany, women they decide to rape while performing sacred genocide or otherwise capture as spoils of war, and the near obligatory sex with slaves, maidservants and other personal property of a human nature.
This is the part I meant was oversimplified; the Tanakh doesn't give a free pass for "mere" fornication instead of adultery, as we both also know. In fact, a man having sex with an unmarried woman was not only required to marry her, it was the only case I know of where divorce was legally impossible, even under the Tanakhs otherwise notoriously lax divorce laws. There aren't a lot of permutations here either: Whether or not you're married, if you have sex with an unmarried virgin you have to marry her and can never divorce her; if you have sex with a married woman it's adultery and you're both stoned to death. That's a long way from "you can fornicate with any unmarried girl you want without consequences! "
As a result, from an Old Testament perspective a woman could know herself or another woman with legal and moral impunity (of course, "legal" and "moral" in the Old Testament are essentially the same concept).
Of course, the Christians had to ruin this situation. Polygamy is discouraged, marriage is expressed to be the "preferred state" if one is going to have sex, ordinary prostitution is decried and we have the famous statement in Paul's Letter to the Romans that directly decries not only male homosexuality, but female homosexuality as well. It is worth noting that the statement in question says "even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature, and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another" (King James Version). It's not the best translation of the Greek, but even in the original the verb used for the women is to "exchange" one for another, and for the men it is to "forsake" the one for the other. As a result, I think that there isn't a clear statement on female bisexuality even at that point. An argument could be made, therefore, that as long as a woman isn't strictly lesbian that she is permitted, even in the New Testament, to know another woman.
As for knowing oneself, there is no direct injunction against it anywhere, and of course "Know Thyself" (Gnothi Seauton) was the motto written above the Delphic Oracle, so everyone in antiquity would have been familiar with the statement.
Of course, the Christians had to ruin this situation. Polygamy is discouraged, marriage is expressed to be the "preferred state" if one is going to have sex, ordinary prostitution is decried and we have the famous statement in Paul's Letter to the Romans that directly decries not only male homosexuality, but female homosexuality as well. It is worth noting that the statement in question says "even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature, and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another" (King James Version). It's not the best translation of the Greek, but even in the original the verb used for the women is to "exchange" one for another, and for the men it is to "forsake" the one for the other. As a result, I think that there isn't a clear statement on female bisexuality even at that point. An argument could be made, therefore, that as long as a woman isn't strictly lesbian that she is permitted, even in the New Testament, to know another woman.
As for knowing oneself, there is no direct injunction against it anywhere, and of course "Know Thyself" (Gnothi Seauton) was the motto written above the Delphic Oracle, so everyone in antiquity would have been familiar with the statement.
I'm not sure it's fair to speak categorically of "Christians" discouraging polygamy; the worst I can recall even Paul saying is that BISHOPS "should be the husband of only one wife", and that's from a man who saw any and all wives as potential stumbling blocks (looking at Samson, Solomon et al. it's hard to argue).
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Which apostles of Jesus Christ have you known? In the biblical sense, of course.
23/03/2011 04:52:48 AM
- 1591 Views
About as close as I can get it is a Mary *NM*
23/03/2011 04:55:10 AM
- 284 Views
Slutty. I like it *NM*
23/03/2011 05:10:03 AM
- 335 Views
My answer.
23/03/2011 05:14:54 AM
- 878 Views
Oh prude! 12 would have been a much sexier answer *NM*
23/03/2011 05:19:45 AM
- 1297 Views
Where is the line between prude and slut? *NM*
23/03/2011 05:34:57 AM
- 389 Views
Sorry, trade secret. *NM*
23/03/2011 05:37:46 AM
- 406 Views
Darn!
23/03/2011 05:44:33 AM
- 842 Views
My challenge to you...
23/03/2011 06:39:06 AM
- 752 Views
How can they have English names, when English didn't even exist yet!?! *NM*
23/03/2011 08:56:09 AM
- 411 Views
God must be a forward thinker. *NM*
23/03/2011 09:34:07 AM
- 289 Views
Well he is omniscient, and he loved Evangelical Baptists above all. It makes sense. *NM*
23/03/2011 10:56:05 AM
- 385 Views
1.5
23/03/2011 02:43:46 PM
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Why?
23/03/2011 03:15:23 PM
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lol, I'm sorry, that just got a lot funnier than I had expected it to.
23/03/2011 03:25:38 PM
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In a strictly Biblical sense, it's the men who do the "knowing" and women who are "known". *NM*
23/03/2011 10:20:34 PM
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Do women get to know anything then? *NM*
24/03/2011 04:25:24 AM
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Can they know themselves? *NM*
24/03/2011 04:31:24 AM
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Good question. According to Biblical scholar Richard Elliott Friedman:
24/03/2011 01:36:56 PM
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That seems over simplified in a few areas, though I've always agreed with the, er, "main thrust".
27/03/2011 05:13:14 AM
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What a terribly thought-out and absolutely groundless response you have shat out.
28/03/2011 05:56:56 AM
- 936 Views
Next time I'm defending you against charges of elitism remind me to forget this exchange.
28/03/2011 08:38:10 PM
- 537 Views
I never asked you to defend me against charges of elitism; I am an elitist.
29/03/2011 12:55:12 AM
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Then I'll have to settle for hoping you're not as representative of RAFO as some fear.
31/03/2011 10:06:34 PM
- 720 Views
Also, John and Jonathan are not the same name.
24/03/2011 02:48:49 AM
- 618 Views
Well Tom, if you've *been known* by both a John and a Jonathan, my hat's off to you.
24/03/2011 04:11:49 AM
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Which is why "Johnathan", "Jonathon" and the like are such abominable names. *NM*
25/03/2011 07:41:02 PM
- 397 Views
I hate it when people of the same ethnicity have different spellings of essentially the same name. *NM*
25/03/2011 10:20:32 PM
- 404 Views
Алина, Алена, Елена really bothers me
25/03/2011 11:42:56 PM
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Americans still have that "official name vs. everyday-use name" thing to a very large degree.
26/03/2011 12:08:26 AM
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Germans do it.
26/03/2011 12:20:21 AM
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I think you'll find they do it rather less these days.
26/03/2011 12:31:54 AM
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I think you may be misunderstanding the concept of nicknames.
26/03/2011 04:17:09 PM
- 631 Views
Is it me, or are your first and last sentence in direct contradiction of each other?
26/03/2011 04:55:33 PM
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Actually, all Slavic languages do it extensively.
26/03/2011 12:29:39 AM
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My experience with Slavic languages is extremely limited, but...
26/03/2011 12:44:19 AM
- 580 Views
But "Tom" isn't a proper name.
26/03/2011 01:53:38 PM
- 666 Views
Oh that's not that bad!
26/03/2011 03:48:05 PM
- 712 Views
Well, you're in luck!
26/03/2011 04:52:18 PM
- 627 Views
But I can't!
26/03/2011 05:13:20 PM
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So you wouldn't love me anymore if you found out my given name was Bobby?
27/03/2011 05:18:19 AM
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I don't mind it if the alternative spelling is at least somewhat current.
26/03/2011 12:03:54 AM
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I love how as long as you're around I don't have to point out stuff like this.
27/03/2011 03:26:04 AM
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I guess I haven't gone the apostle route
24/03/2011 01:48:48 PM
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Re: I guess I haven't gone the apostle route
24/03/2011 09:59:17 PM
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Are there more Peters, or are Peters more likely to get laid? *NM*
25/03/2011 06:08:51 AM
- 400 Views
Re: Are there more Peters, or are Peters more likely to get laid?
25/03/2011 11:10:47 AM
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I had no idea!
26/03/2011 04:28:06 PM
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The entire English-speaking world, generally
26/03/2011 04:55:01 PM
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I know a lot of words for male genetalia, but I'd simply never heard Peter... weird. *NM*
26/03/2011 05:51:56 PM
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I've never heard Peter as a word for penis.
26/03/2011 06:00:12 PM
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Really? There's a whole off color joke built around that in The World According to Garp.
27/03/2011 03:53:57 AM
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It's never too late! *NM*
25/03/2011 06:42:01 PM
- 382 Views
Ah, I'm probably going to be known by only one man for the rest of my life
26/03/2011 04:27:41 PM
- 684 Views
Well then maybe it is too late *NM*
26/03/2011 05:25:46 PM
- 322 Views
Yeah, most likely :-) it's actually quite nice to be honest. *NM*
26/03/2011 05:52:37 PM
- 407 Views
Just Magdalene, sorry, and she only counts if you're a Gnostic or Neo-Gnostic.
27/03/2011 03:23:58 AM
- 656 Views