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We got our authorization. Tom Send a noteboard - 20/03/2011 10:25:10 PM
I was very against the idea that the US (or NATO, or the US along with France and the UK) take action without being asked to do so because it would have given everyone the excuse to say that we're imperialists, cowboys, warmongers and the like and that we just enjoy bombing helpless countries.

The Arab League voting to refer the matter to the UN Security Council, and the UN Security Council vote, helped to change that. The fact that we are downplaying our involvement is also good.

At a purely humanitarian level, I am happy that we are supporting people who want to be free of Qaddhafi's dictatorship. I support our bombing of Libya and would support targeting Qaddhafi himself (ironically, he helped to give us the ability to do this without violating US law when he himself declared that he is not the leader of Libya). I think that we need to help the rebels liberate the rest of the country.

From the perspective of international relations, there are several troubling aspects to this situation:

1. China and Russia continually veto measures that would allow the use of force. What we conceded to in order to get their abstention in this matter is unclear. Russia at least was leaning in our direction because Russia portrays itself as a democracy - the Qaddhafi family was banned from entering Russia last week and they were taking other steps. However, China has shown, consistently, that it will support the most reprehensible dictators in the world. China doesn't pretend that it is a democracy, it doesn't even say it's trying to increase civil participation by its citizens. It kills them with tanks when they step out of line, just like Qaddhafi has been doing. The end result is that the UN doesn't function like it was meant to.

In fact, the UN has historically only functioned "properly" when undemocratic nations were absent or felt that they were internationally too weak to act. The defense of South Korea during the Korean War took place when the Soviets were boycotting the UN because Taiwan held China's seat, the 1991 Gulf War resolutions took place against the backdrop of a collapsing Soviet Union and China that was keeping a low profile following Tiananmen, and the 2001 resolutions after 9/11 took place against the backdrop of global disgust at a blatant attack on civilians and the knowledge that the US was going to do whatever it wanted to regardless. The slaughter of civilians by Qaddhafi now has forced Russia to permit action because to oppose it would go against the Medvedev platform of expanding freedom and make Russia look like an open dictatorship, and China doesn't want to be the lone dissenter.

However, we have to ask ourselves: do we want to keep the UN system? Does a dictatorship have the right to veto proposals made and consented to by the world's democracies? It's one thing to recognize that we need to talk to everyone, but it's another to allow dictatorships to wield power in international organizations like the UN.

2. What precedent have we set? Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy, as is Oman. Qatar, Bahrain, Jordan, Morocco and Kuwait are close to being absolute monarchies. The Yemeni, Sudanese and Syrian presidents are clearly dictators. Iran is run by a clique of murderous theocrats in a system that denies its people most freedoms. All of the countries named have seen some unrest following the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions.

While I think the unrest is probably a good thing, ultimately (people seem disenchanted with political Islam, which has been the proximate cause of our problems with the Muslim world generally, and so have now moved beyond nationalism, socialism and Islamism to demand democracy, though perhaps more on a Turkish model than on an American one), now that we have intervened in Libya what do we do if we see the same thing happen in Syria, with rebels rising up, arming themselves and then being brutally crushed? Let's not forget that Bashar Assad's father, Hafez, brutally slaughtered most of the city of Hama back in the 1970s. If it starts to happen again, what do we do? What do we do if Lebanon resumes its civil war? How do we handle a Shia uprising in the oil-rich eastern provinces of Saudi Arabia, which could be funded and encouraged by Tehran? What do we do about Bahrain, where Iranian influence is assumed?

By intervening, we have put ourselves in a bad situation because now others can request the same help. The other countries might not even be in the Middle East. Zimbabwe, Côte d'Ivoire, even Kenya...

We need to go to great lengths to distinguish this situation from others that might crop up, and be ready to step in if another situation meets the criteria that we set for intervention.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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So within 24 hours of the 1st UN mandated action in Libya... - 20/03/2011 04:38:25 PM 1476 Views
Quite. - 20/03/2011 04:41:39 PM 672 Views
The Arab league guy has gone out saying he was misquoted. - 20/03/2011 05:26:21 PM 722 Views
... completely surprising absolutely no one. *NM* - 20/03/2011 05:28:20 PM 265 Views
China and Russian abstained instead of voting No, which is odd. - 20/03/2011 05:32:02 PM 657 Views
I think we should just ignore anything Russia and China says about human rights.. - 20/03/2011 10:15:59 PM 627 Views
Re: I think we should just ignore anything Russia and China says about human rights.. - 20/03/2011 11:12:11 PM 723 Views
exactly - 21/03/2011 12:13:28 AM 613 Views
Re: So within 24 hours of the 1st UN mandated action in Libya... - 20/03/2011 05:31:48 PM 809 Views
Apparently Qatar is about to join the fray... it is rather crucial that the Arab world backs this. - 20/03/2011 05:50:14 PM 719 Views
And - 20/03/2011 05:52:59 PM 688 Views
There is a lot of politics going on in the Arab League, from what I've read - 20/03/2011 05:52:31 PM 936 Views
That is a big miscalculation. - 20/03/2011 06:10:34 PM 786 Views
Not really - 20/03/2011 06:23:52 PM 818 Views
Agreed. Waiting wasn't an option. *NM* - 20/03/2011 06:46:39 PM 252 Views
I dunno. - 20/03/2011 06:59:18 PM 796 Views
But the people who are going to think that way are going to do it no matter what - 20/03/2011 10:13:36 PM 673 Views
The impression I got - 21/03/2011 04:14:57 PM 780 Views
to much diplomacy and not enough action - 21/03/2011 04:56:45 PM 698 Views
It is us vs. them. - 20/03/2011 10:30:50 PM 863 Views
Seriously. I can't believe Snoop and Rebekah's comments. It's like we had weeks to act. - 20/03/2011 10:27:40 PM 778 Views
We have had weeks to act - 20/03/2011 11:15:15 PM 788 Views
Because when you get involved in what is, unfortunately, an internal matter, - 20/03/2011 11:18:16 PM 688 Views
Qatar is not part of Libya so it would still be outsiders interfering in an internal matter - 21/03/2011 12:25:30 AM 692 Views
I have to ask: - 21/03/2011 03:13:31 AM 861 Views
I don't think the people in Libya give at rat's ass about what the king of Qatar wants - 21/03/2011 05:12:26 AM 822 Views
Imo, it's not about "gratitude." - 21/03/2011 04:05:41 PM 723 Views
I actaully like NPR and listen to them on a regular basis - 21/03/2011 04:44:42 PM 744 Views
Well, that has all shit to do with Qatari participation. - 21/03/2011 03:02:19 AM 678 Views
Not so. - 21/03/2011 08:54:31 AM 782 Views
Bullshit. - 21/03/2011 01:37:32 PM 921 Views
Well. - 21/03/2011 06:58:19 PM 703 Views
That's odd. I'm not seeing any of this criticism. - 21/03/2011 10:55:27 PM 692 Views
There's been plenty on Twitter. - 22/03/2011 08:29:48 AM 864 Views
So let me get this straight: - 22/03/2011 06:48:53 PM 772 Views
It's not about "legitimacy" so much as it is about, to use the ugly word, propaganda. - 21/03/2011 10:33:12 PM 636 Views
Is the Qatar involvement as important as the Kuwaiti involvement in the Iraq War? - 22/03/2011 06:57:27 PM 1114 Views
Kuwait was involved in the Iraq War? *NM* - 22/03/2011 08:35:21 PM 248 Views
They were part of the famous Coalition of the Willing *NM* - 22/03/2011 08:47:55 PM 260 Views
We got our authorization. - 20/03/2011 10:25:10 PM 843 Views
I don't see a situation where this does not turn into a land war. - 20/03/2011 10:51:41 PM 751 Views
it is already is a land war if you ask the people on the ground doing the fighting for weeks - 21/03/2011 12:34:10 AM 741 Views
Yeah, that's what I meant. - 21/03/2011 12:48:57 AM 669 Views
I doubt it would take US ground troops. - 21/03/2011 03:16:24 AM 652 Views
Fuck that - 21/03/2011 12:47:54 AM 711 Views
you are always have been a fence sitter - 21/03/2011 01:09:59 AM 676 Views
Fuck Gadhafi. - 21/03/2011 05:21:29 AM 617 Views
how full of yourself are you? - 21/03/2011 12:37:47 PM 764 Views
They're not my people. - 21/03/2011 02:22:46 PM 746 Views
Wha? - 21/03/2011 03:55:51 PM 785 Views
Nope. - 21/03/2011 04:21:21 PM 771 Views
Ok. - 21/03/2011 04:30:44 PM 701 Views
Do something, get whined at. Do nothing and you get Rwanda. - 21/03/2011 11:19:38 AM 868 Views
I completely agree. *NM* - 21/03/2011 11:04:34 PM 198 Views
I would reply... - 21/03/2011 11:22:14 PM 592 Views
It is only natural that the girl preferred me to you, but....... - 21/03/2011 11:36:33 PM 743 Views
- 21/03/2011 11:38:49 PM 551 Views
Don't me!! - 21/03/2011 11:50:07 PM 689 Views

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