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That's pretty asinine then, yes. Joel Send a noteboard - 05/02/2011 09:38:50 AM
Will you excuse me if I don't quite believe that? It took Scott and another friend of hours several tries to explain to me the other night that when she went to the hospital with chest pains there wasn't even a copay, she paid, zero, zilch, nada for her medical care (at least "at the point of sale"; obviously it's part of her tax burden). You want to talk about "waits" for healthcare? I walked around with appendicitis for two years because I couldn't afford a doctor, only having it removed the day after going to an ER who informed me they'd be doing surgery as soon as a surgeon arrived and hoping my appendix didn't rupture in the mean time.


There is no choice in Ontario. If you want to use an alternative, well you can't as it would be considered a two tier system. One person having faster access to medicare if they want to pay our of their own pocket "would not be fair".

My father had a small accident, he went to the hospital and waited. He arrived at about ten in the morning, at about six in the evening he saw a doctor, and at about nine in the evening he returned home. This to determine he had a sprain. These kind of waits are common place.

There are people dying waiting for surgery on a regular basis.

An example of how absurd things have become; A few years ago when all this 'no two-tier' nonsense was really hitting stride it was learned that the Toronto Raptors were renting out MRI facilities from the Ontario government. The facilities were being used at night when otherwise the facility would have been shut down. Everything was paid for by the Raptors including rent, supplies, staff enabling the Ontario government to make a nice profit doing this. This was a program where anyone who wanted to pay, could take advantage of it. Guess what? No two-tier, program ended, Toronto Raptors and everyone else who now wants choice has to travel to Buffalo for their MRI and other medical needs.

It seems odd that the Canadian system would be so very different from most other socialized systems (including Britain, of which Canada is still nominally a part, though I don't pretend to fully understand how that works). It certainly strikes me as more unfair to say people can't pay out of pocket, but a quick stop by Wikipedia informed me that the laws vary by province rather than being nationally set. I also found this tidbit from BC:

Canadians offered free care in the US paid by the Canadian government have sometimes declined it. In 1990 the British Columbia Medical Association ran radio ads asking, "What's the longest you'd wait in line at a bank before getting really annoyed? Five minutes? Ten minutes? What if you needed a heart operation?" Following this, the government responded, as summarized by Robin Hutchinson, senior medical consultant for the health ministry's heart program. Despite the medically questionable nature of heart bypass for milder cases of chest pain and follow-up studies showing heart bypass recipients were only 25-40% more likely to be relieved of chest pain than people who stay on heart medicine, the "public outcry" following the ads led the government to take action:

"'We did a deal with the University of Washington at Seattle' said Hutchinton..to take 50 bypass cases at $18,000 per head, almost $3,000 higher than the cost in Vancouver, with all the money [paid by] the province..In theory, the Seattle operations promised to take the heat off the Ministry of Health until a fourth heart surgery unit opened in the Vancouver suburb of New Westminster. If the first batch of Seattle bypasses went smoothly..then the government planned to buy three or four more 50-head blocks. But four weeks after announcing the plan, health administrators had to admit they were stumped. 'As of now..we've have nine people sign up. The opposition party, the press, everybody's making a big stink about our waiting lists. And we've got [only] nine people signed up! The surgeons ask their patients and they say, "I'd rather wait," We thought we could get maybe two hundred and fifty done down in Seattle..but if nobody wants to go to Seattle, we're stuck,'".[70]

A vast hue and cry over the length of waiting lists for heart surgery FORCED the government to provide quicker surgeries, despite 20% higher costs--and not even ten people took advantage of the opportunity to jump to the head of the line. It makes me wonder how many of the horror stories about people dying on waiting lists are anecdotal, if even that. Still, while I don't envy your dad waiting all day to have a sprain treated, he DID get treated and, if it's anything like the province where Scott lives, he didn't have to pay a dime beyond what he'd already paid in income tax. That's a far sight better than going to an ER where you'll be triaged and likely still wait most of the day to be told you've got a sprain--and here's your $500 bill for having it treated at an ER since they're the only ones who MUST treat you even without insurance. It brings to mind the man who went to a Chicago ER with chest pains and was told he just had gas, given an Alka Seltzer and sent on his way; he made it as far as the parking lot before his heart attack killed him. Or the girl who died last year hours before her private insurer caved to public pressure and decided that maybe they'd cover her organ transplant after all, though they did stress in their press release that she was NOT covered under her policy, they chose to do her a favor. They just chose to do so only after a year and a half of legal battles and, of course, the death of the patient.

Understand, I believe in a two tiered system; public healthcare should be availabe for essential basic care but if you want and can afford extra luxuries they should be available. Of course, based solely on Wikipedia (i.e. NOT direct experience with the Canadian systems) it looks like that's available; people can pay extra for out of pocket for private rooms and the like, but heart surgery is heart surgery and it's really not fair to say you can get it next week if you can pay for it yourself but have to wait until next year if not. However, the sticking point seems to be that Canadian federal law forbids charging patients for essential care, so that problem can be remedied by simply making it legal to charge patients for their care rather than billing the government, but requiring enrollment in and support of a public system so no one does without care entirely. You may have a hard time convincing a majority of your fellow Canadians they should be directly billed for essential healthcare though. ;)
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That's pretty asinine then, yes. - 05/02/2011 09:38:50 AM 527 Views
Re: That's pretty asinine then, yes. - 06/02/2011 07:55:43 AM 584 Views

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