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Re: Since I'm clearly a glutton for punishment... Joel Send a noteboard - 04/02/2011 11:38:10 PM

So initiating violence is legitimate protest provided you choose the right target? I strongly disagree. You've compared this to the American Revolution; when John Adams defended the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre his fellow colonists had his strong sympathy, yet he passionately argued for the soldiers acquittal in part because nearly every witness agreed THOSE protesters hurled missiles at the soldiers long before anyone was shot. Thus he argued they had the right to defend themselves with force and that even a documented history of animosity between specific soldiers and specific slain protesters made it manslaughter at the most, not murder. You can't initiate violence then cry foul when it's resisted with superior violence.

Erm, Joel? You have compared this to the American Revolution. Not I.

Nice try though.

Fair enough, I did, at that.

It's rather more than inconvenient to those likely to be brutally repressed, imprisoned, tortured and/or executed for being:
1) Women who won't wear a burka,
2) Egyptians more interested than Egypt than a pan-Islamic theocracy,
3) Non-Muslims,
4) Heterodox Muslims and
5) Westerners in Egypt

For them a Muslim Brotherhood government even you concede is probable means far more of what supposedly justifies Mubaraks violent overthrow.

I realize that this might be a difficult concept for people used to American politics, but since you're not living in the US anymore: there's a rather large difference between a government controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood, and one in which the Muslim Brotherhood has far more absolute power than Mubarak ever has, as they would need to implement anything even remotely like your ludicrous list there. And no American government has had that kind of power, either, so so much for your only excuse.

Why wouldn't they? If they can establish a majority, rather than a mere plurality that would require a coalition government, that would give them the reigns of power as surely as it did Mubarak. America hasn't had anything like what I described, no, nor anything like Mubarak, but Egypt is not America, as you so rightly note. A LOT of things can and routinely do happen there that are inconceivable in the States, and pretending that Mubarak is the only one willing or able to do that to Egypt is not only disingenuous but dangerous. If they can form a majority government they'll have both the means and the manpower to create a secret police and army every bit as brutal as anything Mubarak ever perpetrated. They may have renounced non-violence, but SOMEONE has tried to kill Mubarak no less than six times.

From what I'VE there's little reason to believe Egypt is transitioning to democracy, incrementally or otherwise. Before you condemn my opposition to something why don't we verify its actual existence, eh? Once again, I'm not saying I hope Mubaraks regime survives this, but that IF a successor regime would be far more authoritarian, brutal and insensitive to free expression and democracy, IF it would simply make sectarian violence in the streets with government sanction the norm, I hope Mubaraks regime averts that through survival, because the undeniable blood on his hands is less than his successors would have. I'd love a truly free and democratic Egpyt, consider it infinitely preferable to Mubarak, but am not sure that's on the table; there's more evidence it's a choice between the extent and leaders of continued brutal violence and repression. IF that assessment is wrong I'll be the first to cheer true democracy, but democracy is more than simply removing one tyrant in a country boiling with violent xenophobia. Even if I had a vote I wouldn't cast it for any of the contestants here because I'm not convinced any merit it.

Of course Egypt isn't transitioning to democracy. But as of last week, a process has started that might lead to the fall of the dictatorship and a subsequent transition to democracy. Might, of course, not necessarily "will".

As for violent xenophobia, I can't claim to have seen much of that in Egypt, either before the riots or during them. That's not to say no foreigners at all have been bothered or even assaulted, but I'm not seeing any xenophobic patterns. Are you just making that part up like the parts about the Muslim Brotherhood earlier?

I'm basing it on one incident I saw referenced at Bens link, of people holed up in a hotel as protesters "demonstrated" by ripping apart the lower floors as staff begged them to leave and occupants worriedly wondered where the awful evil police were because they feared for their lives due to nothing Mubarak perpetrated. "Might" is a big word, and whether I support what's coming or Mubarak depends entirely on what "might" actually IS in the coming months and years. Extrajudicial imprisonment, let alone murder, is hardly something I condone, but if we shouldn't judge a prospective MB government by Western standards (as I'm sure they'd be the first to agree) we shouldn't judge Mubarak by them either. The fact remains that some of the prisoners BELONG in prison, and, while torture is never excusable, the world would be a better place if Saddam Hussein and Iman Al Zawahiri had remained in those wretched Egyptian prisons until the day they died.

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This message last edited by Joel on 04/02/2011 at 11:40:10 PM

Edit 1 by Joel on 04/02/2011 at 11:40:10 PM

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If anyone's looking for up-to-date info on what's going on in Egypt beetnemesis - 28/01/2011 08:08:31 PM 622 Views

I've been following it on the BBC website. Nebhead - 28/01/2011 09:49:47 PM 357 Views

Clarify: Democracy fans should favor the protesters because they have more violent thugs,right? Joel - 28/01/2011 11:37:48 PM 472 Views

and socialism fans should favor the violent dicator since he can bring order and subsidies random thoughts - 29/01/2011 12:16:37 AM 341 Views

He mainly seems to bring close diplomatic ties to the US and alternatives to the Muslim Brotherhood Joel - 29/01/2011 12:59:48 AM 491 Views

You might want to do a quick check on the political situation in Egypt at this time. Rebekah - 29/01/2011 11:37:02 AM 406 Views

I've done a quick one; it makes me question whether government by the protesters would be better. Joel - 29/01/2011 11:44:10 PM 375 Views

They're not saying "We want to rule". Rebekah - 30/01/2011 01:26:03 AM 387 Views

SOMEONE is going to rule. Joel - 30/01/2011 02:16:43 AM 410 Views

It's a fairly simple matter, really. Legolas - 29/01/2011 11:52:41 AM 414 Views

The trouble with free elections is: They're free. Joel - 29/01/2011 11:53:22 PM 324 Views

A vote for dictatorship and against democracy it is. Just checking. Legolas - 30/01/2011 12:08:41 AM 366 Views

I haven't cast a vote. Joel - 30/01/2011 02:02:11 AM 345 Views

Not one that counts no, but still. Legolas - 30/01/2011 01:11:59 PM 812 Views

None of any kind. Joel - 31/01/2011 12:10:07 AM 387 Views

Since I'm clearly a glutton for punishment... Legolas - 01/02/2011 06:49:38 PM 737 Views

Re: Since I'm clearly a glutton for punishment... Joel - 04/02/2011 11:38:10 PM 500 Views

so you support tyranny of others if it makes things more comfortable for you? random thoughts - 30/01/2011 05:15:01 AM 387 Views

I oppose brutal oppression; I'm unconvinced either side in this will end it, thus I withhold support Joel - 30/01/2011 05:21:37 AM 332 Views

some times it is black and white random thoughts - 31/01/2011 12:37:36 AM 329 Views

I fully support their right to demand democracy; I don't expect they'll get it, whatever happens. Joel - 31/01/2011 01:45:23 AM 527 Views

You're not seriously expecting them to do their revolution American Revolution-style, are you? Legolas - 29/01/2011 11:28:31 AM 392 Views

I think terrorizing innocents and torching buildings is a poor way to claim the moral highground. Joel - 29/01/2011 11:32:19 PM 393 Views

British Colonialism wasn't a walk in the park Isaac - 30/01/2011 03:53:58 AM 344 Views

Comparatively speaking, yes, it really was. Or at least in the US - not always so much in Asia. Legolas - 30/01/2011 10:42:53 AM 336 Views

Re: Comparatively speaking, yes, it really was. Or at least in the US - not always so much in Asia. Isaac - 30/01/2011 02:32:52 PM 389 Views

You can't be serious. Legolas - 30/01/2011 03:07:18 PM 324 Views

Pretty serious Isaac - 30/01/2011 04:52:24 PM 481 Views

Re: Pretty serious Legolas - 30/01/2011 05:11:50 PM 374 Views

This is ridicolous Isaac - 30/01/2011 05:31:31 PM 435 Views

I wouldn't normally think this necessary with you, but okay: let's go back and see what I said. Legolas - 30/01/2011 06:34:09 PM 406 Views

you forget that it was supposdely thier own citizens the British were abusing. random thoughts - 31/01/2011 12:39:33 AM 429 Views

Sure, but organized into hostile armies. A rather different matter, that. *NM* Legolas - 31/01/2011 09:46:25 PM 149 Views

true random thoughts - 31/01/2011 10:04:38 PM 337 Views

Your comparison is very odd Larry - 30/01/2011 04:38:16 PM 418 Views

Why? Isaac - 30/01/2011 05:02:47 PM 368 Views

I dont know if this will help you understand what is going on there Aisha - 30/01/2011 02:45:41 AM 362 Views

I never called anyone an animal. Joel - 30/01/2011 04:50:12 AM 451 Views

Yikes indeed Darth_Katie - 29/01/2011 03:57:25 AM 387 Views

Apparently Egypt blocked access to Facebook, Twitter and some other websites. Rebekah - 29/01/2011 11:38:46 AM 346 Views

Heh, her update was basically "Thanks for turning facebook back on, Egypt." Darth_Katie - 29/01/2011 06:36:49 PM 305 Views

There seems to be some big misconceptions about the Egyption crisis Variant - 31/01/2011 11:52:37 PM 624 Views

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<quote id="189494">
<quote id="188876"><quote id="188526">So initiating violence is legitimate protest provided you choose the right target?  I strongly disagree.  You've compared this to the American Revolution; when John Adams defended the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre his fellow colonists had his strong sympathy, yet he passionately argued for the soldiers acquittal in part because nearly every witness agreed THOSE protesters hurled missiles at the soldiers long before anyone was shot.  Thus he argued they had the right to defend themselves with force and that even a documented history of animosity between specific soldiers and specific slain protesters made it manslaughter at the most, not murder.  You can't initiate violence then cry foul when it's resisted with superior violence.</quote>
Erm, Joel? <i>You</i> have compared this to the American Revolution. Not I. :P Nice try though. :P</quote>
Fair enough, I did, at that. 
<quote id="188876"><quote id="188526">It's rather more than inconvenient to those likely to be brutally repressed, imprisoned, tortured and/or executed for being:
1) Women who won't wear a burka, 
2) Egyptians more interested than Egypt than a pan-Islamic theocracy, 
3) Non-Muslims, 
4) Heterodox Muslims and 
5) Westerners in Egypt

For them a Muslim Brotherhood government even you concede is probable means far more of what supposedly justifies Mubaraks violent overthrow.</quote>
I realize that this might be a difficult concept for people used to American politics, but since you're not living in the US anymore: there's a rather large difference between a government controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood, and one in which the Muslim Brotherhood has far more absolute power than Mubarak ever has, as they would need to implement anything even remotely like your ludicrous list there. And no American government has had that kind of power, either, so so much for your only excuse. :P

No, but seriously, you'll understand what I meant by the US comment if you look at Lebanon's recent politics. Coalition politics being what they are, Hizbullah is now in a position where one can fairly say that they control the government - but they don't have a majority on their own, they have to be careful how they wield their influence as they cannot afford to lose their coalition partners. In truly democratic elections in Egypt, I believe the Muslim Brotherhood could obtain an influential position and quite possibly exert similar influence over the government - and so I agree there would likely be inconveniences, and more than that for Israel and the American military-industrial complex - but nothing like an absolute majority. Not that they'd do anything like what you said, or could, even if they did have an absolute majority.</quote>
Why wouldn't they?  If they can establish a majority, rather than a mere plurality that would require a coalition government, that would give them the reigns of power as surely as it did Mubarak.  America hasn't had anything like what I described, no, nor anything like Mubarak, but Egypt is not America, as you so rightly note.  A LOT of things can and routinely do happen there that are inconceivable in the States, and pretending that Mubarak is the only one willing or able to do that to Egypt is not only disingenuous but dangerous.  If they can form a majority government they'll have both the means and the manpower to create a secret police and army every bit as brutal as anything Mubarak ever perpetrated.  They may have renounced non-violence, but SOMEONE has tried to kill Mubarak no less than six times.
<quote id="188876"><quote id="188526">From what I'VE there's little reason to believe Egypt is transitioning to democracy, incrementally or otherwise.  Before you condemn my opposition to something why don't we verify its actual existence, eh?  Once again, I'm not saying I hope Mubaraks regime survives this, but that IF a successor regime would be far more authoritarian, brutal and insensitive to free expression and democracy, IF it would simply make sectarian violence in the streets with government sanction the norm, I hope Mubaraks regime averts that through survival, because the undeniable blood on his hands is less than his successors would have.  I'd love a truly free and democratic Egpyt, consider it infinitely preferable to Mubarak, but am not sure that's on the table; there's more evidence it's a choice between the extent and leaders of continued brutal violence and repression.  IF that assessment is wrong I'll be the first to cheer true democracy, but democracy is more than simply removing one tyrant in a country boiling with violent xenophobia.  Even if I had a vote I wouldn't cast it for any of the contestants here because I'm not convinced any merit it.</quote>
Of course Egypt isn't transitioning to democracy. But as of last week, a process has started that might lead to the fall of the dictatorship and a subsequent transition to democracy. Might, of course, not necessarily "will".

As for violent xenophobia, I can't claim to have seen much of that in Egypt, either before the riots or during them. That's not to say no foreigners at all have been bothered or even assaulted, but I'm not seeing any xenophobic patterns. Are you just making that part up like the parts about the Muslim Brotherhood earlier?</quote>
I'm basing it on one incident I saw referenced at Bens link, of people holed up in a hotel as protesters "demonstrated" by ripping apart the lower floors as staff begged them to leave and occupants worriedly wondered where the awful evil police were because they feared for their lives due to nothing Mubarak perpetrated.  "Might" is a big word, and whether I support what's coming or Mubarak depends entirely on what "might" actually IS in the coming months and years.  Extrajudicial imprisonment, let alone murder, is hardly something I condone, but if we shouldn't judge a prospective MB government by Western standards (as I'm sure they'd be the first to agree) we shouldn't judge Mubarak by them either.  The fact remains that some of the prisoners BELONG in prison, and, while torture is never excusable, the world would be a better place if Saddam Hussein and Iman Al Zawahiri had remained in those wretched Egyptian prisons until the day they died.  
</quote>

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