But my close Egyptian friends have family down there in the protests. In fact one of my best friends cousins who are lawyers helped organize the protest at Tahrir Square. They are NOT the ones looting. It is the secret police (in plain clothes) that is doing this to make the protesters look bad. Protesters as young as 13 years of age have made human shields around the museum and other places to stop the looting and other bullshit certain people are trying to pull (most of the looters that have been caught have police ID's). Its easy to sit here and judge and say that they should be protesting peacefully and not violently but even the peaceful protests were met with violence from the police. In Egypt you are not allowed to protest against the government, Period. This is a government that has tortured, killed and imprisoned its people for decades and the people have had enough.
The secret police I am talking beat a british journalist quite badly today and trashed his camera. there is video footage of a protester being shot in the back while running away from the police. These protesters are fucking heroes not animals like you seem to think.
Maybe these links will help you learn some more about the situation.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/26/egypt-protests
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2011/1/29/live_from_the_egyptian_revolution_by_sharif_abdel_kouddous
I mean, I'm no fan of one party authoritarian states sustained by the military and corrupt businessmen, but if Mubarak is opposing people who torch buildings and storm hotels while guests huddle in hiding wondering where the police are it's hard for me to question his response. This isn't the people peaceably assembling to petition for a redress of grievances, it's a national riot. Virtually any Western democracy faced with indiscrimate violence, possibly even killing, though it's hard to be sure from the little chaotic info I've seen, would declare martial law, and with that in mind Mubaraks response so far doesn't seem too unreasonable. I have no illusions about his nobility, but let's keep things in perspective and recall that neither the Reign of Terror nor the Bolshevik Revolution significantly improved things for the oppressed; it just meant they were oppressed at least as much and more violently. The relevance I see to those terms, even in an advanced modern nation like Egypt, is precisely the sort of thing I have in mind when I suggest the Mid-East isn't capable of full participation in 21st Century international relations.
So, who wants to clue me in on what I'm missing here...?
The secret police I am talking beat a british journalist quite badly today and trashed his camera. there is video footage of a protester being shot in the back while running away from the police. These protesters are fucking heroes not animals like you seem to think.
Maybe these links will help you learn some more about the situation.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/26/egypt-protests
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2011/1/29/live_from_the_egyptian_revolution_by_sharif_abdel_kouddous
This link has been updated near-continuously for a while now.
Yikes.
Yikes.
I mean, I'm no fan of one party authoritarian states sustained by the military and corrupt businessmen, but if Mubarak is opposing people who torch buildings and storm hotels while guests huddle in hiding wondering where the police are it's hard for me to question his response. This isn't the people peaceably assembling to petition for a redress of grievances, it's a national riot. Virtually any Western democracy faced with indiscrimate violence, possibly even killing, though it's hard to be sure from the little chaotic info I've seen, would declare martial law, and with that in mind Mubaraks response so far doesn't seem too unreasonable. I have no illusions about his nobility, but let's keep things in perspective and recall that neither the Reign of Terror nor the Bolshevik Revolution significantly improved things for the oppressed; it just meant they were oppressed at least as much and more violently. The relevance I see to those terms, even in an advanced modern nation like Egypt, is precisely the sort of thing I have in mind when I suggest the Mid-East isn't capable of full participation in 21st Century international relations.
So, who wants to clue me in on what I'm missing here...?
The links were helpful, but don't seem to change much: Violent thuggery is being met with violent thuggery; I still see no reason to take sides, to the extent it's even my place to do so. Whether peaceful protests are legal in Egypt is largely irrelevant to the very violent riots occurring now. The journalist at the first link sounds like he could benefit from a little objectivity as well; if he were covering protesters in the States and a "few hundred rallied in front of me... spying an empty police truck in the road, several people began to smash it up, eventually tipping it over and setting it on fire" you can bet your bottom police wold try to disperse them with tear gas. I'm not sure how that qualifies as an "attack" on the central square though. I'd expect an attack to use something more forceful than tear gas, particularly since we already know live ammunition has been used against rioters. On the other hand, if that was limited to the government officials "holed up inside" the Interior Ministry as rioters approached and "in the background, the smoking, blackened shell of Hosni Mubarak’s National Democratic Party headquarters served as an ominous reminder of their intentions" (from your second link) I can't say I blame them: If some of the same "protesters" who'd been throwing Molotov cocktails at police approached the place I were "holed up" in sight of the smoldering wreckage they left of my party HQ I'd probably fire on them, too; that's a fairly common response from cornered people afraid for their lives.
Yet again, I'm not excusing Mubarak for anything, I'm simply saying that if all the analyst are right to expectat about a successor government from the Muslim Brotherhood, a group that almost singlehandedly created modern Islamist terrorism and thus prompted creation of the very emergency powers on which Mubarak depends, that doesn't look much better and will likely be worse. Just the links already in this thread offered the story of terrified hotel guests listening to protesters downstairs and WISHING the police were there as hotel staff tried to make them leave; if those were actually the brutal Egyptian secret police trying to defame legitimate protesters do you think they'd have been convinced to just leave? You can't excuse indiscriminate violence by saying, "but they do it, too!" Mubarak's violence is unconscionable, but that from the protesters is laudable? Why, because the latter have a majority? That's the only justification that MIGHT be claimed for doing the very thing one so forcefully opposes.
Protesters protecting national treasures with their bodies is laudable, yes; if there were of that and less violence it would be a lot easier to say which side I want to come out on top here. The first bit of encouraging news I've seen is paragraph at your second link:
There is a great sense of pride that this is a leaderless movement organized by the people. A genuine popular revolt. It was not organized by opposition movements, though they have now joined the protesters in Tahrir. The Muslim Brotherhood was out in full force today. At one point they began chanting "Allah Akbar" only to be drowned out by much louder chants of "Muslim, Christian, we are all Egyptian."
That's very promising and I hope it holds up; nationalism, Egyptian or otherwise, is as much anathema to the Muslim Brotherhood as are the West, womens rights, non-Muslim rights, rights of any Muslims considered "heretical" and, in general, the individual rights their revered Qutb found so offensive in America. Put another way, the Democracy Now icon is very ironic for a site so favorable to riots every analyst I've seen says will put the Muslim Brotherhood in charge if successful: It's a statue of a WOMAN symbolizing the NATIONAL principle of INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY in a WESTERN state, no less than four things Mubaraks most likely successors are dedicated to destroying by force. So, once again, if real democracy (e.g. with the principle of individual liberty without which it's an empty shell under Mubarak or anyone) is in the offing, I'm all for it. Torching buildings, trashing police cars and throwing firebombs don't convince me that's the case though. The way this almost invariably goes is that one authoritarian regime is replaced with another (see: Iran). I'd love to be wrong in that expectation, but I've only just now seen any evidence to that effect, and there's still more on the other side.
I'm not saying Mubarak's a saint, merely that I see no evidence most of his opponents are better or deserve my endorsement. Not my call, regardless.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
If anyone's looking for up-to-date info on what's going on in Egypt
28/01/2011 08:08:31 PM
- 622 Views
Clarify: Democracy fans should favor the protesters because they have more violent thugs,right?
28/01/2011 11:37:48 PM
- 472 Views
and socialism fans should favor the violent dicator since he can bring order and subsidies
29/01/2011 12:16:37 AM
- 341 Views
He mainly seems to bring close diplomatic ties to the US and alternatives to the Muslim Brotherhood
29/01/2011 12:59:48 AM
- 491 Views
You might want to do a quick check on the political situation in Egypt at this time.
29/01/2011 11:37:02 AM
- 406 Views
I've done a quick one; it makes me question whether government by the protesters would be better.
29/01/2011 11:44:10 PM
- 375 Views
It's a fairly simple matter, really.
29/01/2011 11:52:41 AM
- 414 Views
The trouble with free elections is: They're free.
29/01/2011 11:53:22 PM
- 324 Views
A vote for dictatorship and against democracy it is. Just checking.
30/01/2011 12:08:41 AM
- 366 Views
I haven't cast a vote.
30/01/2011 02:02:11 AM
- 345 Views
Not one that counts no, but still.
30/01/2011 01:11:59 PM
- 811 Views
None of any kind.
31/01/2011 12:10:07 AM
- 386 Views
so you support tyranny of others if it makes things more comfortable for you?
30/01/2011 05:15:01 AM
- 387 Views
I oppose brutal oppression; I'm unconvinced either side in this will end it, thus I withhold support
30/01/2011 05:21:37 AM
- 332 Views
some times it is black and white
31/01/2011 12:37:36 AM
- 329 Views
I fully support their right to demand democracy; I don't expect they'll get it, whatever happens.
31/01/2011 01:45:23 AM
- 527 Views
You're not seriously expecting them to do their revolution American Revolution-style, are you?
29/01/2011 11:28:31 AM
- 391 Views
I think terrorizing innocents and torching buildings is a poor way to claim the moral highground.
29/01/2011 11:32:19 PM
- 393 Views
British Colonialism wasn't a walk in the park
30/01/2011 03:53:58 AM
- 344 Views
Comparatively speaking, yes, it really was. Or at least in the US - not always so much in Asia.
30/01/2011 10:42:53 AM
- 335 Views
Re: Comparatively speaking, yes, it really was. Or at least in the US - not always so much in Asia.
30/01/2011 02:32:52 PM
- 389 Views
You can't be serious.
30/01/2011 03:07:18 PM
- 324 Views
Pretty serious
30/01/2011 04:52:24 PM
- 480 Views
Re: Pretty serious
30/01/2011 05:11:50 PM
- 374 Views
This is ridicolous
30/01/2011 05:31:31 PM
- 435 Views
I wouldn't normally think this necessary with you, but okay: let's go back and see what I said.
30/01/2011 06:34:09 PM
- 406 Views
you forget that it was supposdely thier own citizens the British were abusing.
31/01/2011 12:39:33 AM
- 429 Views
Sure, but organized into hostile armies. A rather different matter, that. *NM*
31/01/2011 09:46:25 PM
- 148 Views
I dont know if this will help you understand what is going on there
30/01/2011 02:45:41 AM
- 362 Views
I never called anyone an animal.
30/01/2011 04:50:12 AM
- 451 Views
Yikes indeed
29/01/2011 03:57:25 AM
- 387 Views
Apparently Egypt blocked access to Facebook, Twitter and some other websites.
29/01/2011 11:38:46 AM
- 346 Views
Heh, her update was basically "Thanks for turning facebook back on, Egypt."
29/01/2011 06:36:49 PM
- 304 Views
There seems to be some big misconceptions about the Egyption crisis
31/01/2011 11:52:37 PM
- 623 Views