Active Users:1156 Time:22/11/2024 11:43:03 PM
I never said it was. Joel Send a noteboard - 20/01/2011 06:59:39 PM
Also, for at least a week I consciously avoided digging into the details lest I find reason to believe Loughner more than a nut. Unfortunately it won't go away. We can't mourn the dead and address the ease with which one can legally get a gun despite a long and documented history of mental instability and criminal violence (the public suggestion that we SHOULDN'T do this is what prompted me to look deeper); instead we must focus on a former governors insistence that a comfy shoe doesn't fit. Rather than say, "Its absurd to suggest any connection" that suggestion is publicly called a malicious act. One op ed can be ignored; when a large political faction parrots it right down to the diction it must be addressed. If protesting libel charges means the shoe fits, protesting incitement charges does the same--which means it's not libel at all.

The right has, IMO, a legitimate grievance with left punditry and fringe blaming most every violent incident on them without proof. Rallying against that is utterly expected, totally legal, and IMO entirely ethical, your disagreement on the latter point is not really relevant, anymore than mine when an oil spill or industrial accident brings out those who favor greater regulation. You are stepping very close in your comments to an apparent endorsement of 1st amendment restrictions, which is so bizarre coming from you, as normally that is an area we strongly agree on, that I can not contemplate your motives as less than biased or I am simply not understanding where you're going with this. Are you seriously suggesting Palin and others be charged with some crime? It genuinely sounds like you are but that seems so ludicrous from you that I must assume you are simply not explaining your position clearly, yet you seem to keep reiterating the point.

Admittedly, I've made a lot of posts here, many of them lengthy, but regarding new vs. old laws, I'm only arguing for the latter. We've frequently discussed the well known SCOTUS rulings that incitement to violence/rioting isn't protected by free speech. In fact, I'm fairly certain I've referenced them with regard to extremist inflammatory rhetoric from the far right, so I suppose I was guilty of "blood libel" BEFORE the shootings, too. :rolleyes: You can say what you want as long as it can't reasonably be considered to encourage violence. We can debate whether statements by Palin et al. qualify, but I believe there's cause to think they do. In any event, you'd think after two straight years of liberals saying, "if you people keep talking like that about us some nut is going to take you literally and kill one of us" an attempt to murder a liberal Congresswoman would prompt something other than "there's no way this had anything to do with our statements and how dare you suggest otherwise?!" Maybe we're paranoid, but we aren't shooting people over it, and if there's even a slight risk of inciting violence you'd think preventing that would be enough incentive to tone down the rhetoric rather than asserting the right to say anything and everything whomever it endangers.
Now as for guns laws, you say established history, and I agree Loughner had an established history, yet we must keep two things in mind. First, nothing from a legal standpoint was done against him, we can hardly cry foul and demand more laws when the authority to prevent this already existed and was simply not exercised. Second, we must tread very carefully when we start talking about stripping someone's rights on grounds of insanity or incompetence utilizing the same rule of thumb we have when we say "Better ten guilty men go free than one innocent be imprisoned", because it is essentially the same thing, when you take away someone's rights, whatever those rights are, you have the burden of proof to show that it was demonstrably justified and necessary. And when you do that, you must look at each individual action, not as a group, and ask if those warranted the action you took. Oh, many minor infractions or warning signs can 'add up' but when we look at why he wasn't dealt with we have to see if any of his prior incidents actually warranted restrictions, because from a practical standpoint many really did not except in hindsight. For instance, drug usage. His details are sketchy still but the military does not routinely contact the authorities if an applicant comes up hot for marijuana, and for fairly obvious reasons. For one, the test is voluntary as joining is voluntary. Nor do they wish to scare applicants away for fear they will not only be rejected but incarcerated. Many young people, with the foolishness only youth explains, regularly show up with narcotics still in their system for their MEPS exam. Considering most of us view pot usage by young adults as trivial having thousands of would be soldiers arrested each year would not go over well. Further, were a draft re-enabled for any reason, and a requirement to report positive results enforced, it is almost impossible to imagine the number of people who would need arresting and it would also burden the military with lots of red tape and procedures for what is otherwise a relatively simple rejection process since no criminal charges are expected to be filed, same as many companies use.

Additionally, drug use is a very bad standard for denying someone anything from the Bill of Rights. We would not do it for any other right and do so for that one only because it represents a clear hazard. A patterned history of prolonged drug use seems a fair standard to remove that privilege, at least temporarily, but why on Earth would a man who got arrested for smoking pot or doing coke say five years ago and since had no run ins with the law be less viable for gun ownership and transport than anyone else? We can take this a step further, he brought a gun to class, but I don't recall hearing that any charges were filed for that, and a gun in a college classroom is not some automatic crime. Much like bringing a gun anywhere, there may be rules and restrictions in local law or for private property their own rules, but we can hardly take away someone's gun if no law was violated or if no one bothered to press charges if a law was violated. Is taking a gun on to private property without permission even a felony? That would vary from case to case and state to state, obviously hunters who enter someone else's back woods on accident are not routinely incarcerated. Nor is showing people a gun a crime, it can be, for the purpose of intimidation, but even that's slippery ground. A person with a carry and conceal permit is on pretty solid ground when they open their jacket to reveal a weapon, letting people know you have a gun is not a crime anywhere that I know of, threatening someone with it can be, as can having it. Regardless, if no criminal charges are filed it hardly permits one to take away that right. And if we get to some murky "Clearly established pattern of behavior" you then have to have rules and authority on what constitutes 'clearly established' and who gets to judge that. I'm not sure extreme new legislation which might prevent such things is warranted, considering how genuinely rare they are. It's not PC to say so but this country does not have a rash of killing sprees, we have millions of guns, millions of cranks, and 300+ million people, yet tragic as these things are, they are relatively uncommon on that scale. You are hugely more likely to be killed or injured in a car accident, and a license is not a constitutional right, why would we want laws more restrictive than those existing for drivers? Say 30 people die a year in spree killings, this is high, but represent only 1 in 10 million people, rounding up again to assume a 100 year lifespan, the average persons chance of ever being killed under such circumstance are a mere 1 in 100,000, 20 times smaller than your odds of being struck by lightning in your lifetime, and we boosted our numbers twice to get that figure. We don't need more panic legislation for something like this which can cause for greater harm.

We're not talking about someone acquitted, but someone who had two criminal charges dismissed by completing what Wikipedia calls "diversion program[s]". They seem to have been exactly that: They diverted both justice and societys safety. Liberalism almost certainly bears some blame for that. "College police" are barely worthy of the name, so I'm not surprised they could do nothing except (effectively) have Loughner expelled for five violations of their code of conduct but, once again, there's a record of violent wrongdoing. They didn't literally expel him, of course--they just made his return to class conditional on a mental evaluation stating he wasn't a danger to others, which he didn't even try to obtain. A classmate and teacher both said they feared he could commit a school shooting. I find it difficult to believe this guy would've been able to legally get a gun if the Brady Bills mandatory background checks were still in effect--but of course they aren't, so when one store refused to sell an obvious nut ammo on the morning of the shooting, he simply went to another and got it. I'm not talking about "extreme NEW legislation", despite the fact that everytime someone brings this up since the shootings that's the response. The OLD federal law requiring background checks to bar violent criminals and/or the insane from legally getting guns doesn't seem like an infringement on Constitutional rights, since it ONLY affects criminals and the insane and would prevent murder.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 20/01/2011 at 07:00:55 PM
Reply to message
OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. - 16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM 1988 Views
Why are they calling it "blood libel"? - 16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM 851 Views
Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable. - 16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM 1027 Views
It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but... - 16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM 1072 Views
That's why I said, "popularized". - 16/01/2011 01:46:52 PM 1023 Views
I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already - 16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM 1366 Views
Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread. - 16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM 925 Views
She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either - 16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM 928 Views
I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. - 16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM 956 Views
Re: I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. - 16/01/2011 11:30:38 PM 852 Views
Oh please don't you start to - 17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM 808 Views
I for one hadn't noticed it before. - 17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM 979 Views
it was used here and nobody commented - 17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM 867 Views
LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here - 17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM 919 Views
It's funny you should say that... - 18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM 951 Views
Re: It's funny you should say that... - 19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM 937 Views
It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry. - 20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM 961 Views
A rallying cry is hardly illegal - 20/01/2011 05:32:45 PM 1013 Views
I never said it was. - 20/01/2011 06:59:39 PM 1145 Views
Oh, I noticed that one alright. - 18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM 791 Views
compared to the way similar terms are used? - 19/01/2011 06:58:02 PM 937 Views
I meant I hadn't seen it used in different contexts before. - 19/01/2011 07:35:00 PM 917 Views
Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. - 16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM 1004 Views
Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. - 16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM 1033 Views
Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her. - 17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM 1172 Views
That means precisely nothing - 17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM 870 Views
It means everything. - 18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM 1139 Views
I'm trying to understand your logic - 19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM 744 Views
There are two points: - 19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM 931 Views
Re: It means everything. - 19/01/2011 05:55:02 PM 770 Views
That's simply illogical. - 20/01/2011 01:08:51 AM 1148 Views
the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument - 19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM 1024 Views
that is some twisted and bizarre logic - 17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM 968 Views
So I am a little confused on something... - 16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM 1025 Views
Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this - 16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM 1161 Views
If I understand what you are saying correctly... - 17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM 897 Views
I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. - 17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM 908 Views
Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. - 17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM 961 Views
The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically. - 18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM 796 Views
No, they don't - 18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM 982 Views
Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one. - 18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM 1064 Views
You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said - 19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM 911 Views
I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice) - 20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM 948 Views
The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity - 20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM 997 Views
More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice? - 20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM 1059 Views
Your shifting your original premise, *again* - 20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM 883 Views
No, you're simply missing the point of it. - 20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM 880 Views
There is no point - 21/01/2011 12:22:30 AM 928 Views
If I had no point I wouldn't bother, but fair enough. - 21/01/2011 01:20:32 AM 1176 Views
Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book. - 16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM 1198 Views
You're awesome at missing points, aren't you? - 16/01/2011 07:26:30 PM 942 Views
where is the accountability for those committing slander? - 17/01/2011 02:52:40 PM 852 Views
Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither. - 16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM 898 Views
conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto - 17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM 876 Views
That first line is says it all. - 18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM 960 Views
Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist - 19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM 1066 Views
The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power". - 20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM 949 Views
and that is supposed to mean something? - 20/01/2011 06:06:18 PM 988 Views
YOU are cherry picking. - 20/01/2011 07:50:21 PM 894 Views
It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central... - 16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM 1153 Views
See my reply to Dragonsoul above. - 16/01/2011 07:30:40 PM 1003 Views
Yeah, your first was better - 16/01/2011 09:48:58 PM 815 Views
Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed. - 16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM 877 Views
Pretty much. - 16/01/2011 11:44:35 PM 961 Views
Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM* - 17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM 447 Views
politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM* - 17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM 407 Views
She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah. - 18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM 845 Views
OK Olberman when did I imply otherwise? *NM* - 19/01/2011 02:48:41 PM 459 Views
"Political offices are vandalized on a regular basis". - 20/01/2011 03:16:39 AM 1039 Views
Took you this long, huh? - 17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM 797 Views
I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy - 17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM 813 Views
I'm just curious. - 17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM 788 Views
Re: I'm just curious. - 17/01/2011 03:28:04 PM 931 Views
I always said I'd do that after Bush was re-elected. - 18/01/2011 11:52:45 PM 811 Views
like I said a matter of faith - 17/01/2011 04:27:51 PM 803 Views
I find it interesting... - 17/01/2011 05:31:54 PM 952 Views
I mention her looks solely because... - 20/01/2011 02:30:42 PM 821 Views
If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ). - 18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM 1007 Views
mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity - 19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM 812 Views
A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs? - 20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM 867 Views
so it is all a matter of faith for you - 20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM 817 Views
No, it's fairly straight forward logic. - 20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM 921 Views
sorry Joel but you haven't - 20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM 726 Views
It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that. - 20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM 819 Views
only in your does the connection exisit - 20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM 852 Views
No. - 20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM 932 Views
dude wake up - 20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM 1073 Views
So in your opinion... - 17/01/2011 05:27:58 PM 803 Views
How 'bout simply color coding them? - 18/01/2011 11:21:03 PM 851 Views
Why not just blame Giffords? - 17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM 1148 Views
Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does. - 18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM 967 Views
The irony of this thread is not lost on me. - 19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM 991 Views
Exactly. *NM* - 19/01/2011 04:51:40 PM 497 Views
Bizarre thread for that Soapbox - 19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM 738 Views
You missed the point, obviously. - 19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM 847 Views
so you are saying it is the same old RAFO - 19/01/2011 06:47:24 PM 907 Views
The thread has admittedly degenerated - 19/01/2011 07:02:12 PM 764 Views
Check your NB. Noted you a response. *NM* - 19/01/2011 07:04:58 PM 477 Views
That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long. - 19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM 996 Views
Hey, now. I have to step in. - 20/01/2011 04:44:49 PM 1017 Views
I'm just saying a significant link can be demonstrated. - 20/01/2011 07:07:27 PM 1070 Views
Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. - 22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM 1004 Views

Reply to Message