Also, for at least a week I consciously avoided digging into the details lest I find reason to believe Loughner more than a nut. Unfortunately it won't go away. We can't mourn the dead and address the ease with which one can legally get a gun despite a long and documented history of mental instability and criminal violence (the public suggestion that we SHOULDN'T do this is what prompted me to look deeper); instead we must focus on a former governors insistence that a comfy shoe doesn't fit. Rather than say, "Its absurd to suggest any connection" that suggestion is publicly called a malicious act. One op ed can be ignored; when a large political faction parrots it right down to the diction it must be addressed. If protesting libel charges means the shoe fits, protesting incitement charges does the same--which means it's not libel at all.
The right has, IMO, a legitimate grievance with left punditry and fringe blaming most every violent incident on them without proof. Rallying against that is utterly expected, totally legal, and IMO entirely ethical, your disagreement on the latter point is not really relevant, anymore than mine when an oil spill or industrial accident brings out those who favor greater regulation. You are stepping very close in your comments to an apparent endorsement of 1st amendment restrictions, which is so bizarre coming from you, as normally that is an area we strongly agree on, that I can not contemplate your motives as less than biased or I am simply not understanding where you're going with this. Are you seriously suggesting Palin and others be charged with some crime? It genuinely sounds like you are but that seems so ludicrous from you that I must assume you are simply not explaining your position clearly, yet you seem to keep reiterating the point.
Now as for guns laws, you say established history, and I agree Loughner had an established history, yet we must keep two things in mind. First, nothing from a legal standpoint was done against him, we can hardly cry foul and demand more laws when the authority to prevent this already existed and was simply not exercised. Second, we must tread very carefully when we start talking about stripping someone's rights on grounds of insanity or incompetence utilizing the same rule of thumb we have when we say "Better ten guilty men go free than one innocent be imprisoned", because it is essentially the same thing, when you take away someone's rights, whatever those rights are, you have the burden of proof to show that it was demonstrably justified and necessary. And when you do that, you must look at each individual action, not as a group, and ask if those warranted the action you took. Oh, many minor infractions or warning signs can 'add up' but when we look at why he wasn't dealt with we have to see if any of his prior incidents actually warranted restrictions, because from a practical standpoint many really did not except in hindsight. For instance, drug usage. His details are sketchy still but the military does not routinely contact the authorities if an applicant comes up hot for marijuana, and for fairly obvious reasons. For one, the test is voluntary as joining is voluntary. Nor do they wish to scare applicants away for fear they will not only be rejected but incarcerated. Many young people, with the foolishness only youth explains, regularly show up with narcotics still in their system for their MEPS exam. Considering most of us view pot usage by young adults as trivial having thousands of would be soldiers arrested each year would not go over well. Further, were a draft re-enabled for any reason, and a requirement to report positive results enforced, it is almost impossible to imagine the number of people who would need arresting and it would also burden the military with lots of red tape and procedures for what is otherwise a relatively simple rejection process since no criminal charges are expected to be filed, same as many companies use.
Additionally, drug use is a very bad standard for denying someone anything from the Bill of Rights. We would not do it for any other right and do so for that one only because it represents a clear hazard. A patterned history of prolonged drug use seems a fair standard to remove that privilege, at least temporarily, but why on Earth would a man who got arrested for smoking pot or doing coke say five years ago and since had no run ins with the law be less viable for gun ownership and transport than anyone else? We can take this a step further, he brought a gun to class, but I don't recall hearing that any charges were filed for that, and a gun in a college classroom is not some automatic crime. Much like bringing a gun anywhere, there may be rules and restrictions in local law or for private property their own rules, but we can hardly take away someone's gun if no law was violated or if no one bothered to press charges if a law was violated. Is taking a gun on to private property without permission even a felony? That would vary from case to case and state to state, obviously hunters who enter someone else's back woods on accident are not routinely incarcerated. Nor is showing people a gun a crime, it can be, for the purpose of intimidation, but even that's slippery ground. A person with a carry and conceal permit is on pretty solid ground when they open their jacket to reveal a weapon, letting people know you have a gun is not a crime anywhere that I know of, threatening someone with it can be, as can having it. Regardless, if no criminal charges are filed it hardly permits one to take away that right. And if we get to some murky "Clearly established pattern of behavior" you then have to have rules and authority on what constitutes 'clearly established' and who gets to judge that. I'm not sure extreme new legislation which might prevent such things is warranted, considering how genuinely rare they are. It's not PC to say so but this country does not have a rash of killing sprees, we have millions of guns, millions of cranks, and 300+ million people, yet tragic as these things are, they are relatively uncommon on that scale. You are hugely more likely to be killed or injured in a car accident, and a license is not a constitutional right, why would we want laws more restrictive than those existing for drivers? Say 30 people die a year in spree killings, this is high, but represent only 1 in 10 million people, rounding up again to assume a 100 year lifespan, the average persons chance of ever being killed under such circumstance are a mere 1 in 100,000, 20 times smaller than your odds of being struck by lightning in your lifetime, and we boosted our numbers twice to get that figure. We don't need more panic legislation for something like this which can cause for greater harm.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM
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Why are they calling it "blood libel"?
16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM
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Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable.
16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM
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It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but...
16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM
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I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already
16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM
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Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread.
16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM
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She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either
16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM
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I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it.
16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM
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Oh please don't you start to
17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM
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I for one hadn't noticed it before.
17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM
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it was used here and nobody commented
17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM
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LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here
17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM
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It's funny you should say that...
18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM
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Precisely: I noticed, but it hadn't become a rallying cry for "the real victim" (Palin).
19/01/2011 12:14:48 AM
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I thought you were the real vicitim
19/01/2011 02:49:06 PM
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When and where did I say that? The ultimate victim is America, but six members of it just died.
19/01/2011 11:24:27 PM
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Re: It's funny you should say that...
19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM
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It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry.
20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM
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A rallying cry is hardly illegal
20/01/2011 05:32:45 PM
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Oh, I noticed that one alright.
18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM
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but is he accussed of being a tasteless moron who doesn't know what it means?
19/01/2011 02:28:03 PM
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I don't know, if I have to judge him based on that one article, then tasteless moron, absolutely.
19/01/2011 06:14:43 PM
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The peole who called her stupid for using the term didn't know it was so wide spread either
17/01/2011 02:33:19 PM
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Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM
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Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM
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Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her.
17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM
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That means precisely nothing
17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM
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It means everything.
18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM
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I'm trying to understand your logic
19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM
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There are two points:
19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM
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I don't agree, but I understand. *NM*
19/01/2011 10:14:13 PM
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Giffords' statements and Palins are matters of public record; they're indisputable.
19/01/2011 11:34:53 PM
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I must say, if more people on both sides could say that we'd all be better for it.
20/01/2011 04:32:55 AM
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the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument
19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM
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Your inability/unwillingness to follow basic and clearly delineated logic is not my failing.
20/01/2011 01:19:31 AM
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I admit I can't follow gnome logic *NM*
20/01/2011 05:50:22 AM
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I demonstrated the connection, whether or not you choose to look the other way.
20/01/2011 03:16:28 PM
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that is some twisted and bizarre logic
17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM
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Giffords said Palins crosshairs imagery would have "consequences"; Palin calls the suggestion libel.
18/01/2011 08:54:45 PM
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yes but the only consequences is liberals using them to slander Palin
19/01/2011 02:58:35 PM
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I read Toms reply; I don't think he exactly vindicated your position, nor meant to do so.
20/01/2011 01:52:37 AM
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It was an example of blaming the victim, a phrase you keep misusing
20/01/2011 06:28:21 PM
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I thought you said only liberals blinded by political bias committed that grave sin.
20/01/2011 07:47:09 PM
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so in other words you again missed the point
20/01/2011 08:26:49 PM
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Well, one of us did.
20/01/2011 09:24:35 PM
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so lets be clear do you or don't you understand what it means to "blame the vicitm"?
20/01/2011 10:03:48 PM
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I understand it well; can we be equally clear you say the victim here is Palin?
20/01/2011 10:44:08 PM
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So I am a little confused on something...
16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM
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Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this
16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM
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If I understand what you are saying correctly...
17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM
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I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM
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Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM
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The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically.
18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM
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No, they don't
18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM
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Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one.
18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM
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You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said
19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM
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I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice)
20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM
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The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity
20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM
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More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice?
20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM
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really because people post that kind of crap daily and nothing happens
20/01/2011 05:57:52 PM
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I thought waterboarding was OK and any suggestion to the contrary was terrorist sympathizing.
20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM
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way to dodge the point again
20/01/2011 08:34:33 PM
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Do you have an example of a credible threat of injury to a Congressman, or calls for one?
20/01/2011 10:02:53 PM
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Your shifting your original premise, *again*
20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM
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No, you're simply missing the point of it.
20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM
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Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book.
16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM
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Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither.
16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM
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conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto
17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM
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That first line is says it all.
18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM
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Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist
19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM
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The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power".
20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM
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It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central...
16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM
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Again, I don't think Palin intended this, but Giffords feared ten months ago that this could result.
16/01/2011 11:29:19 PM
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And I call bullshit
18/01/2011 03:12:13 PM
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If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face.
18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM
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So if some jihadist shot Gifford, would you also blame Palin?
19/01/2011 02:52:42 PM
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don't get ti doesn't matter who is to blame it just matters if they can use it *NM*
19/01/2011 04:11:09 PM
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No, I'd blame the shooter first and the mullahs shouting, "JIHAD111" second, as I always do.
20/01/2011 03:11:33 AM
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Then why are you even here? I pretty much agree with you entirely and I'm fairly liberal. *NM*
18/01/2011 01:16:33 PM
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Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed.
16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM
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Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM*
17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM
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I didn't realize someone had, but it appears a militia leader was responsible (shocking, I know).
17/01/2011 07:04:08 AM
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politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM*
17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM
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She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah.
18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM
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Took you this long, huh?
17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM
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I didn't want to look because I was afraid the charges against the far right demagogues might stick.
18/01/2011 11:07:26 PM
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I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy
17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM
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I'm just curious.
17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM
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Had that convo with the cab driver on the way home from a New Years party.
18/01/2011 11:42:07 PM
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If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ).
18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM
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mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity
19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM
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A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs?
20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM
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so it is all a matter of faith for you
20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM
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No, it's fairly straight forward logic.
20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM
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sorry Joel but you haven't
20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM
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It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that.
20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM
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only in your does the connection exisit
20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM
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No.
20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM
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dude wake up
20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM
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Fine, I have no problem dropping the "right" label in my condemnations.
20/01/2011 10:39:34 PM
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Why not just blame Giffords?
17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM
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Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does.
18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM
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The left are the ones storing up hate with their pathetic slaner
18/01/2011 07:53:23 PM
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At least 95% of the blame is Loughners; he's a nut, but that doesn't exonerate the demagogues.
18/01/2011 11:24:11 PM
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0% belongs to political rhetoric from the right
19/01/2011 02:47:56 PM
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Uh huh; it's absurd to mention right wing rhetoric when left wing rhetoric is the OBVIOUS culprit
19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM
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No leftist rhetoric? You just called a bunch of people 'dangeorus lunatics'
19/01/2011 03:37:54 PM
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Rhetoric is one thing, but I didn't use violent imagery, did I?
20/01/2011 01:40:14 AM
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no but the democratic party used very similar images in the same state
20/01/2011 06:41:19 PM
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It's news to me, but I condemn all violent inflammatory imagery and rhetoric.
20/01/2011 07:13:18 PM
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it was the national democrats
20/01/2011 08:32:01 PM
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Then that's equally dangerous and reprehensible and more reason to loathe the DLC and DCCC.
20/01/2011 09:49:08 PM
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The right is not the ones claiming rhetoric is the issue
19/01/2011 03:58:39 PM
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"WE aren't doing it, except for when we are". Admission of guilt is a poor defense.
20/01/2011 03:25:16 AM
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The irony of this thread is not lost on me.
19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM
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Bizarre thread for that Soapbox
19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM
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You missed the point, obviously.
19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM
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That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long.
19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM
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Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM
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We can debate whether it's coincidental, but the connections are documented fact
22/01/2011 08:17:24 PM
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