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If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face. Joel Send a noteboard - 18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM
I'm not trying to silence anyone (I think Jared Loughner made that attempt) so if you want to fling around the cowardice tag, talk to Mrs. Palin.
Calling that fear "blood libel" while she's lying in a hospital bed is blaming the victim in my book. Giffords saw that Palins words COULD motivate this even if there happens to be no other connection with the attempt to murder her;

She was full of it - this was pure political rhetoric trying to score points against Republicans. If she was genuinely afraid of such an improbable outcome, she is too chickenshit to be in national politics, and her shooting would be more of a Darwin Award sort of thing (How about some security precautions? Maybe don't go out in public rallies if you are genuinely afraid of your life, until or unless you get some better security. A few years ago, back before 9-11, I read in an article somewhere that all Congressmen are entitled to at least a bodyguard from some federal agency or other (FBI or Marshall service maybe) but almost none of them take advantage of it. The anticipated threat was kidnapping and holding a Congressman for ransom, but I find it hard to believe that a Democrat with genuine security concerns could not obtain protection from a Democratic administration.

The fact that her baselss rhetorical chicken-little act intended to score political points coincided with a result in no way implicates Palin et al, or spreads any of the blame from a man who gives absolutely no evidence of being influenced by her.

Baseless? Are you kidding? The woman voiced her concerns after someone ransacked her office then was shot, but it's all HER fault because she didn't ask for more security? Did you go to the Lee Harvey Oswald School of Law? Maybe, like JFK, she thought hiding would be cowardly, and poor service to constituents with a right to see her. Accounts at the time indicated that she referenced the "consequences" of Palins site as an aside while actively (and foolishly, IMHO) DOWNPLAYING her own risks (despite already having been attacked at the behest of a "militia" leader). If your best defense for Palin is yet another way to blame the victim that counts as an EPIC fail, man.

No, I don't think Loughner went on a shooting spree specifically because of Palins website. I DO think two years of uninterrupted incitement to militance and hatred by Palin and the rest of the far right contributed to it, encouraged an already unstable and violent mind to do something horrible. That Giffords happened to have explicitly referenced Palin the LAST time someone explicitly and publicly called for violence against liberals and people all over the country committed it is the reason why we're focused on Palins website, but the sad and scary thing is it was BOUND to happen. Why? Because so many on the far right have used the same kind of imagery to promote militant hatred for the past two years, while so many on the left voiced concern about what would result, that it was INEVITABLE someone on the left would be attacked like this, and equally INEVITABLE they would have made a specific reference to one of the many many inflammatory statements by far right leaders. Whatever incitement they referenced by whatever far right demagogue would be certain to make the front page after their easily predictable attack.

What it boils down to is that most of the left has been saying for two years that the far right rhetoric was putting their lives in danger and even after that's been demonstrated you still insist they're all just blowing smoke. You have the right to whatever fantasies you like, and so does Jared Loughner, but not when they get people murdered.
Palin STILL can't see it. That doesn't make her responsible for this attack, though if she keeps up with the same rhetoric it seems like only a matter of time, but if she can't see a danger in hindsight that Giffords saw ten months ago it DOES mean she lacks the judgement to lead. Accusing a woman who was almost killed of maligning her is just shameful.
Unlike Gabby's accusaitons, Palin's complaint is justified. Giffords WAS maligning her, and her unrelated shooting neither makes her right, nor Palin wrong. Palin had nothing to do with this, but you don't like her and you find the fact that she refuses to be silenced by the injury to someone this country is, lets's face it, better off without her in Congress annoying, so you have strung together this absurd and fuzzy line of reasoning why Palin should shut up. It doesn't matter how many people are dead or injured (and why is all the attention being paid to Giffords whom we are constantly being reassured of how well she is recuperating, when an actual federal judge is DEAD? Because he was a Bush appointee, and there is no stick with which to beat Palin, Beck and company in his murder), it is still wrong to falsely accuse anyone in their deaths, and it is cowardly to attemtpt to silence political speech, especially political dissent, in the name of an unrelated victim.

The reason so much attention is being paid to Giffords has nothing to do with political bias and everything to do with her explicitly referencing Palins site when predicting an attack (or another attack, since her office had already been the target of far right violence explicitly urged by a "militia" leader). Presumably these attacks will continue while the far rights leaders deny any responsibility; it's working so far, and it DID accomplish the objective you find so commendable: Removing Giffords from Congress. Again, if not for Giffords' explicit reference to Palins site the latter would be no more than one small part of a large group of demagogues stirring up hatred and militance.

However, the plethora of far right leaders doing just that is undeniable, and when many people proclaim all liberals to be godless, treasonous, communist EVIL to be defeated and destroyed at any price, as a public service as well as an act of survival, this is what results. The blame for THIS incident is largely Loughners, just as the blame for the attack on Giffords' office belongs to the perpetrator, and, to a lesser extent, the "militia" leader who publicly urged the whole country to attack politicians offices. That leaves Palin and her ilk free of MOST of the blame--but not all of it, because each of them helped create the climate from which unbalanced minds conclude that any action against liberals is justified patriotism. After all, extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, right? Yet what LBJ said to Goldwater applies to Palin and Co. also: "Extremism in the pursuit of the Presidency is an unpardonable vice. Moderation in the affairs of the nation is the highest virtue. "

I'll give you this much though: You're the only person yet, INCLUDING Palin, who's had the balls to say that if she's a victim of "blood libel" then Gabrielle Giffords is her primary assailant. That shows courage, but courage in the absence of decency and objectivity is a disturbing thing. The kamikaze had courage, too, and Philip Sheridan, but that doesn't ennoble the sentiment that "the only good Indian is a dead Indian". When you courageously defend the reprehensible and dangerous I respect your courage and deplore your cause.
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This message last edited by Joel on 18/01/2011 at 10:42:17 PM
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OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. - 16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM 1988 Views
Why are they calling it "blood libel"? - 16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM 850 Views
Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable. - 16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM 1027 Views
It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but... - 16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM 1072 Views
That's why I said, "popularized". - 16/01/2011 01:46:52 PM 1023 Views
I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already - 16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM 1365 Views
Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread. - 16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM 924 Views
She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either - 16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM 928 Views
I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. - 16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM 955 Views
Re: I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. - 16/01/2011 11:30:38 PM 852 Views
Oh please don't you start to - 17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM 807 Views
I for one hadn't noticed it before. - 17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM 978 Views
it was used here and nobody commented - 17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM 867 Views
LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here - 17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM 919 Views
It's funny you should say that... - 18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM 951 Views
Re: It's funny you should say that... - 19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM 936 Views
It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry. - 20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM 960 Views
A rallying cry is hardly illegal - 20/01/2011 05:32:45 PM 1013 Views
I never said it was. - 20/01/2011 06:59:39 PM 1144 Views
Oh, I noticed that one alright. - 18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM 791 Views
compared to the way similar terms are used? - 19/01/2011 06:58:02 PM 936 Views
I meant I hadn't seen it used in different contexts before. - 19/01/2011 07:35:00 PM 917 Views
Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. - 16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM 1004 Views
Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. - 16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM 1033 Views
Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her. - 17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM 1171 Views
That means precisely nothing - 17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM 869 Views
It means everything. - 18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM 1138 Views
I'm trying to understand your logic - 19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM 743 Views
There are two points: - 19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM 931 Views
Re: It means everything. - 19/01/2011 05:55:02 PM 770 Views
That's simply illogical. - 20/01/2011 01:08:51 AM 1147 Views
the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument - 19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM 1024 Views
that is some twisted and bizarre logic - 17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM 968 Views
So I am a little confused on something... - 16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM 1025 Views
Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this - 16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM 1161 Views
If I understand what you are saying correctly... - 17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM 897 Views
I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. - 17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM 907 Views
Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. - 17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM 960 Views
The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically. - 18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM 796 Views
No, they don't - 18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM 982 Views
Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one. - 18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM 1063 Views
You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said - 19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM 911 Views
I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice) - 20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM 948 Views
The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity - 20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM 996 Views
More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice? - 20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM 1058 Views
Your shifting your original premise, *again* - 20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM 883 Views
No, you're simply missing the point of it. - 20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM 880 Views
There is no point - 21/01/2011 12:22:30 AM 927 Views
If I had no point I wouldn't bother, but fair enough. - 21/01/2011 01:20:32 AM 1176 Views
Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book. - 16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM 1198 Views
You're awesome at missing points, aren't you? - 16/01/2011 07:26:30 PM 941 Views
where is the accountability for those committing slander? - 17/01/2011 02:52:40 PM 851 Views
Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither. - 16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM 898 Views
conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto - 17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM 876 Views
That first line is says it all. - 18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM 960 Views
Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist - 19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM 1066 Views
The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power". - 20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM 949 Views
and that is supposed to mean something? - 20/01/2011 06:06:18 PM 988 Views
YOU are cherry picking. - 20/01/2011 07:50:21 PM 894 Views
It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central... - 16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM 1153 Views
See my reply to Dragonsoul above. - 16/01/2011 07:30:40 PM 1002 Views
Yeah, your first was better - 16/01/2011 09:48:58 PM 815 Views
Again, I don't think Palin intended this, but Giffords feared ten months ago that this could result. - 16/01/2011 11:29:19 PM 958 Views
And I call bullshit - 18/01/2011 03:12:13 PM 1100 Views
If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face. - 18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM 1057 Views
Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed. - 16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM 877 Views
Pretty much. - 16/01/2011 11:44:35 PM 960 Views
Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM* - 17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM 447 Views
politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM* - 17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM 407 Views
She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah. - 18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM 845 Views
OK Olberman when did I imply otherwise? *NM* - 19/01/2011 02:48:41 PM 458 Views
"Political offices are vandalized on a regular basis". - 20/01/2011 03:16:39 AM 1038 Views
Took you this long, huh? - 17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM 797 Views
I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy - 17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM 812 Views
I'm just curious. - 17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM 788 Views
Re: I'm just curious. - 17/01/2011 03:28:04 PM 931 Views
I always said I'd do that after Bush was re-elected. - 18/01/2011 11:52:45 PM 811 Views
like I said a matter of faith - 17/01/2011 04:27:51 PM 803 Views
I find it interesting... - 17/01/2011 05:31:54 PM 952 Views
I mention her looks solely because... - 20/01/2011 02:30:42 PM 821 Views
If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ). - 18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM 1007 Views
mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity - 19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM 812 Views
A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs? - 20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM 866 Views
so it is all a matter of faith for you - 20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM 816 Views
No, it's fairly straight forward logic. - 20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM 921 Views
sorry Joel but you haven't - 20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM 725 Views
It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that. - 20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM 819 Views
only in your does the connection exisit - 20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM 852 Views
No. - 20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM 931 Views
dude wake up - 20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM 1073 Views
So in your opinion... - 17/01/2011 05:27:58 PM 803 Views
How 'bout simply color coding them? - 18/01/2011 11:21:03 PM 850 Views
Why not just blame Giffords? - 17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM 1148 Views
Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does. - 18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM 967 Views
The irony of this thread is not lost on me. - 19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM 990 Views
Exactly. *NM* - 19/01/2011 04:51:40 PM 496 Views
Bizarre thread for that Soapbox - 19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM 738 Views
You missed the point, obviously. - 19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM 847 Views
so you are saying it is the same old RAFO - 19/01/2011 06:47:24 PM 907 Views
The thread has admittedly degenerated - 19/01/2011 07:02:12 PM 764 Views
Check your NB. Noted you a response. *NM* - 19/01/2011 07:04:58 PM 477 Views
That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long. - 19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM 995 Views
Hey, now. I have to step in. - 20/01/2011 04:44:49 PM 1017 Views
I'm just saying a significant link can be demonstrated. - 20/01/2011 07:07:27 PM 1070 Views
Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. - 22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM 1003 Views

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