If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face.
Joel Send a noteboard - 18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM
I'm not trying to silence anyone (I think Jared Loughner made that attempt) so if you want to fling around the cowardice tag, talk to Mrs. Palin.
She was full of it - this was pure political rhetoric trying to score points against Republicans. If she was genuinely afraid of such an improbable outcome, she is too chickenshit to be in national politics, and her shooting would be more of a Darwin Award sort of thing (How about some security precautions? Maybe don't go out in public rallies if you are genuinely afraid of your life, until or unless you get some better security. A few years ago, back before 9-11, I read in an article somewhere that all Congressmen are entitled to at least a bodyguard from some federal agency or other (FBI or Marshall service maybe) but almost none of them take advantage of it. The anticipated threat was kidnapping and holding a Congressman for ransom, but I find it hard to believe that a Democrat with genuine security concerns could not obtain protection from a Democratic administration.
The fact that her baselss rhetorical chicken-little act intended to score political points coincided with a result in no way implicates Palin et al, or spreads any of the blame from a man who gives absolutely no evidence of being influenced by her.
Baseless? Are you kidding? The woman voiced her concerns after someone ransacked her office then was shot, but it's all HER fault because she didn't ask for more security? Did you go to the Lee Harvey Oswald School of Law? Maybe, like JFK, she thought hiding would be cowardly, and poor service to constituents with a right to see her. Accounts at the time indicated that she referenced the "consequences" of Palins site as an aside while actively (and foolishly, IMHO) DOWNPLAYING her own risks (despite already having been attacked at the behest of a "militia" leader). If your best defense for Palin is yet another way to blame the victim that counts as an EPIC fail, man.
No, I don't think Loughner went on a shooting spree specifically because of Palins website. I DO think two years of uninterrupted incitement to militance and hatred by Palin and the rest of the far right contributed to it, encouraged an already unstable and violent mind to do something horrible. That Giffords happened to have explicitly referenced Palin the LAST time someone explicitly and publicly called for violence against liberals and people all over the country committed it is the reason why we're focused on Palins website, but the sad and scary thing is it was BOUND to happen. Why? Because so many on the far right have used the same kind of imagery to promote militant hatred for the past two years, while so many on the left voiced concern about what would result, that it was INEVITABLE someone on the left would be attacked like this, and equally INEVITABLE they would have made a specific reference to one of the many many inflammatory statements by far right leaders. Whatever incitement they referenced by whatever far right demagogue would be certain to make the front page after their easily predictable attack.
What it boils down to is that most of the left has been saying for two years that the far right rhetoric was putting their lives in danger and even after that's been demonstrated you still insist they're all just blowing smoke. You have the right to whatever fantasies you like, and so does Jared Loughner, but not when they get people murdered.
The reason so much attention is being paid to Giffords has nothing to do with political bias and everything to do with her explicitly referencing Palins site when predicting an attack (or another attack, since her office had already been the target of far right violence explicitly urged by a "militia" leader). Presumably these attacks will continue while the far rights leaders deny any responsibility; it's working so far, and it DID accomplish the objective you find so commendable: Removing Giffords from Congress. Again, if not for Giffords' explicit reference to Palins site the latter would be no more than one small part of a large group of demagogues stirring up hatred and militance.
However, the plethora of far right leaders doing just that is undeniable, and when many people proclaim all liberals to be godless, treasonous, communist EVIL to be defeated and destroyed at any price, as a public service as well as an act of survival, this is what results. The blame for THIS incident is largely Loughners, just as the blame for the attack on Giffords' office belongs to the perpetrator, and, to a lesser extent, the "militia" leader who publicly urged the whole country to attack politicians offices. That leaves Palin and her ilk free of MOST of the blame--but not all of it, because each of them helped create the climate from which unbalanced minds conclude that any action against liberals is justified patriotism. After all, extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, right? Yet what LBJ said to Goldwater applies to Palin and Co. also: "Extremism in the pursuit of the Presidency is an unpardonable vice. Moderation in the affairs of the nation is the highest virtue. "
I'll give you this much though: You're the only person yet, INCLUDING Palin, who's had the balls to say that if she's a victim of "blood libel" then Gabrielle Giffords is her primary assailant. That shows courage, but courage in the absence of decency and objectivity is a disturbing thing. The kamikaze had courage, too, and Philip Sheridan, but that doesn't ennoble the sentiment that "the only good Indian is a dead Indian". When you courageously defend the reprehensible and dangerous I respect your courage and deplore your cause.
Calling that fear "blood libel" while she's lying in a hospital bed is blaming the victim in my book. Giffords saw that Palins words COULD motivate this even if there happens to be no other connection with the attempt to murder her;
She was full of it - this was pure political rhetoric trying to score points against Republicans. If she was genuinely afraid of such an improbable outcome, she is too chickenshit to be in national politics, and her shooting would be more of a Darwin Award sort of thing (How about some security precautions? Maybe don't go out in public rallies if you are genuinely afraid of your life, until or unless you get some better security. A few years ago, back before 9-11, I read in an article somewhere that all Congressmen are entitled to at least a bodyguard from some federal agency or other (FBI or Marshall service maybe) but almost none of them take advantage of it. The anticipated threat was kidnapping and holding a Congressman for ransom, but I find it hard to believe that a Democrat with genuine security concerns could not obtain protection from a Democratic administration.
The fact that her baselss rhetorical chicken-little act intended to score political points coincided with a result in no way implicates Palin et al, or spreads any of the blame from a man who gives absolutely no evidence of being influenced by her.
Baseless? Are you kidding? The woman voiced her concerns after someone ransacked her office then was shot, but it's all HER fault because she didn't ask for more security? Did you go to the Lee Harvey Oswald School of Law? Maybe, like JFK, she thought hiding would be cowardly, and poor service to constituents with a right to see her. Accounts at the time indicated that she referenced the "consequences" of Palins site as an aside while actively (and foolishly, IMHO) DOWNPLAYING her own risks (despite already having been attacked at the behest of a "militia" leader). If your best defense for Palin is yet another way to blame the victim that counts as an EPIC fail, man.
No, I don't think Loughner went on a shooting spree specifically because of Palins website. I DO think two years of uninterrupted incitement to militance and hatred by Palin and the rest of the far right contributed to it, encouraged an already unstable and violent mind to do something horrible. That Giffords happened to have explicitly referenced Palin the LAST time someone explicitly and publicly called for violence against liberals and people all over the country committed it is the reason why we're focused on Palins website, but the sad and scary thing is it was BOUND to happen. Why? Because so many on the far right have used the same kind of imagery to promote militant hatred for the past two years, while so many on the left voiced concern about what would result, that it was INEVITABLE someone on the left would be attacked like this, and equally INEVITABLE they would have made a specific reference to one of the many many inflammatory statements by far right leaders. Whatever incitement they referenced by whatever far right demagogue would be certain to make the front page after their easily predictable attack.
What it boils down to is that most of the left has been saying for two years that the far right rhetoric was putting their lives in danger and even after that's been demonstrated you still insist they're all just blowing smoke. You have the right to whatever fantasies you like, and so does Jared Loughner, but not when they get people murdered.
Palin STILL can't see it. That doesn't make her responsible for this attack, though if she keeps up with the same rhetoric it seems like only a matter of time, but if she can't see a danger in hindsight that Giffords saw ten months ago it DOES mean she lacks the judgement to lead. Accusing a woman who was almost killed of maligning her is just shameful.
Unlike Gabby's accusaitons, Palin's complaint is justified. Giffords WAS maligning her, and her unrelated shooting neither makes her right, nor Palin wrong. Palin had nothing to do with this, but you don't like her and you find the fact that she refuses to be silenced by the injury to someone this country is, lets's face it, better off without her in Congress annoying, so you have strung together this absurd and fuzzy line of reasoning why Palin should shut up. It doesn't matter how many people are dead or injured (and why is all the attention being paid to Giffords whom we are constantly being reassured of how well she is recuperating, when an actual federal judge is DEAD? Because he was a Bush appointee, and there is no stick with which to beat Palin, Beck and company in his murder), it is still wrong to falsely accuse anyone in their deaths, and it is cowardly to attemtpt to silence political speech, especially political dissent, in the name of an unrelated victim. The reason so much attention is being paid to Giffords has nothing to do with political bias and everything to do with her explicitly referencing Palins site when predicting an attack (or another attack, since her office had already been the target of far right violence explicitly urged by a "militia" leader). Presumably these attacks will continue while the far rights leaders deny any responsibility; it's working so far, and it DID accomplish the objective you find so commendable: Removing Giffords from Congress. Again, if not for Giffords' explicit reference to Palins site the latter would be no more than one small part of a large group of demagogues stirring up hatred and militance.
However, the plethora of far right leaders doing just that is undeniable, and when many people proclaim all liberals to be godless, treasonous, communist EVIL to be defeated and destroyed at any price, as a public service as well as an act of survival, this is what results. The blame for THIS incident is largely Loughners, just as the blame for the attack on Giffords' office belongs to the perpetrator, and, to a lesser extent, the "militia" leader who publicly urged the whole country to attack politicians offices. That leaves Palin and her ilk free of MOST of the blame--but not all of it, because each of them helped create the climate from which unbalanced minds conclude that any action against liberals is justified patriotism. After all, extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, right? Yet what LBJ said to Goldwater applies to Palin and Co. also: "Extremism in the pursuit of the Presidency is an unpardonable vice. Moderation in the affairs of the nation is the highest virtue. "
I'll give you this much though: You're the only person yet, INCLUDING Palin, who's had the balls to say that if she's a victim of "blood libel" then Gabrielle Giffords is her primary assailant. That shows courage, but courage in the absence of decency and objectivity is a disturbing thing. The kamikaze had courage, too, and Philip Sheridan, but that doesn't ennoble the sentiment that "the only good Indian is a dead Indian". When you courageously defend the reprehensible and dangerous I respect your courage and deplore your cause.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
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LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 18/01/2011 at 10:42:17 PM
OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM
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Why are they calling it "blood libel"?
16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM
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Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable.
16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM
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It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but...
16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM
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I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already
16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM
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Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread.
16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM
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She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either
16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM
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I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it.
16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM
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Oh please don't you start to
17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM
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I for one hadn't noticed it before.
17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM
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it was used here and nobody commented
17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM
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LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here
17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM
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It's funny you should say that...
18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM
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Precisely: I noticed, but it hadn't become a rallying cry for "the real victim" (Palin).
19/01/2011 12:14:48 AM
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I thought you were the real vicitim
19/01/2011 02:49:06 PM
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When and where did I say that? The ultimate victim is America, but six members of it just died.
19/01/2011 11:24:27 PM
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Re: It's funny you should say that...
19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM
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It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry.
20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM
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Oh, I noticed that one alright.
18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM
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but is he accussed of being a tasteless moron who doesn't know what it means?
19/01/2011 02:28:03 PM
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I don't know, if I have to judge him based on that one article, then tasteless moron, absolutely.
19/01/2011 06:14:43 PM
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The peole who called her stupid for using the term didn't know it was so wide spread either
17/01/2011 02:33:19 PM
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Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM
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Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM
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Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her.
17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM
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That means precisely nothing
17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM
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It means everything.
18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM
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I'm trying to understand your logic
19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM
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There are two points:
19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM
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I don't agree, but I understand. *NM*
19/01/2011 10:14:13 PM
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Giffords' statements and Palins are matters of public record; they're indisputable.
19/01/2011 11:34:53 PM
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I must say, if more people on both sides could say that we'd all be better for it.
20/01/2011 04:32:55 AM
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the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument
19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM
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Your inability/unwillingness to follow basic and clearly delineated logic is not my failing.
20/01/2011 01:19:31 AM
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I admit I can't follow gnome logic *NM*
20/01/2011 05:50:22 AM
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I demonstrated the connection, whether or not you choose to look the other way.
20/01/2011 03:16:28 PM
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that is some twisted and bizarre logic
17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM
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Giffords said Palins crosshairs imagery would have "consequences"; Palin calls the suggestion libel.
18/01/2011 08:54:45 PM
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yes but the only consequences is liberals using them to slander Palin
19/01/2011 02:58:35 PM
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I read Toms reply; I don't think he exactly vindicated your position, nor meant to do so.
20/01/2011 01:52:37 AM
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It was an example of blaming the victim, a phrase you keep misusing
20/01/2011 06:28:21 PM
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I thought you said only liberals blinded by political bias committed that grave sin.
20/01/2011 07:47:09 PM
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so in other words you again missed the point
20/01/2011 08:26:49 PM
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Well, one of us did.
20/01/2011 09:24:35 PM
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so lets be clear do you or don't you understand what it means to "blame the vicitm"?
20/01/2011 10:03:48 PM
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I understand it well; can we be equally clear you say the victim here is Palin?
20/01/2011 10:44:08 PM
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So I am a little confused on something...
16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM
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Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this
16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM
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If I understand what you are saying correctly...
17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM
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I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM
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Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM
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The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically.
18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM
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No, they don't
18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM
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Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one.
18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM
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You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said
19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM
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I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice)
20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM
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The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity
20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM
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More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice?
20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM
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really because people post that kind of crap daily and nothing happens
20/01/2011 05:57:52 PM
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I thought waterboarding was OK and any suggestion to the contrary was terrorist sympathizing.
20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM
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way to dodge the point again
20/01/2011 08:34:33 PM
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Do you have an example of a credible threat of injury to a Congressman, or calls for one?
20/01/2011 10:02:53 PM
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Your shifting your original premise, *again*
20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM
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No, you're simply missing the point of it.
20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM
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Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book.
16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM
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Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither.
16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM
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conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto
17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM
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That first line is says it all.
18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM
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Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist
19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM
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The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power".
20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM
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It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central...
16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM
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Again, I don't think Palin intended this, but Giffords feared ten months ago that this could result.
16/01/2011 11:29:19 PM
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And I call bullshit
18/01/2011 03:12:13 PM
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If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face.
18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM
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So if some jihadist shot Gifford, would you also blame Palin?
19/01/2011 02:52:42 PM
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don't get ti doesn't matter who is to blame it just matters if they can use it *NM*
19/01/2011 04:11:09 PM
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No, I'd blame the shooter first and the mullahs shouting, "JIHAD111" second, as I always do.
20/01/2011 03:11:33 AM
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Then why are you even here? I pretty much agree with you entirely and I'm fairly liberal. *NM*
18/01/2011 01:16:33 PM
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Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed.
16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM
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Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM*
17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM
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I didn't realize someone had, but it appears a militia leader was responsible (shocking, I know).
17/01/2011 07:04:08 AM
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politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM*
17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM
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She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah.
18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM
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Took you this long, huh?
17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM
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I didn't want to look because I was afraid the charges against the far right demagogues might stick.
18/01/2011 11:07:26 PM
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I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy
17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM
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I'm just curious.
17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM
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Had that convo with the cab driver on the way home from a New Years party.
18/01/2011 11:42:07 PM
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If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ).
18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM
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mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity
19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM
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A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs?
20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM
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so it is all a matter of faith for you
20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM
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No, it's fairly straight forward logic.
20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM
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sorry Joel but you haven't
20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM
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It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that.
20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM
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only in your does the connection exisit
20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM
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No.
20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM
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dude wake up
20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM
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Fine, I have no problem dropping the "right" label in my condemnations.
20/01/2011 10:39:34 PM
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Why not just blame Giffords?
17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM
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Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does.
18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM
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The left are the ones storing up hate with their pathetic slaner
18/01/2011 07:53:23 PM
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At least 95% of the blame is Loughners; he's a nut, but that doesn't exonerate the demagogues.
18/01/2011 11:24:11 PM
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0% belongs to political rhetoric from the right
19/01/2011 02:47:56 PM
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Uh huh; it's absurd to mention right wing rhetoric when left wing rhetoric is the OBVIOUS culprit
19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM
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No leftist rhetoric? You just called a bunch of people 'dangeorus lunatics'
19/01/2011 03:37:54 PM
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Rhetoric is one thing, but I didn't use violent imagery, did I?
20/01/2011 01:40:14 AM
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no but the democratic party used very similar images in the same state
20/01/2011 06:41:19 PM
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It's news to me, but I condemn all violent inflammatory imagery and rhetoric.
20/01/2011 07:13:18 PM
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it was the national democrats
20/01/2011 08:32:01 PM
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Then that's equally dangerous and reprehensible and more reason to loathe the DLC and DCCC.
20/01/2011 09:49:08 PM
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The right is not the ones claiming rhetoric is the issue
19/01/2011 03:58:39 PM
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"WE aren't doing it, except for when we are". Admission of guilt is a poor defense.
20/01/2011 03:25:16 AM
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The irony of this thread is not lost on me.
19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM
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Bizarre thread for that Soapbox
19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM
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You missed the point, obviously.
19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM
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That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long.
19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM
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Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM
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We can debate whether it's coincidental, but the connections are documented fact
22/01/2011 08:17:24 PM
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