Not because I'm a liberal, though I am, and not because Loughner's a conservative (his own friends say he was neither right nor left, and Ayn Rand and Mein Kampf are strange favorites for liberals). It's because of one of the best examples of what Ms. Palin and others call "blood libel":
Care to take a wild "shot" at the speaker?
US Representative Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ) ten months before Jared Loughner shot her in the head.
And there is actual evidence that he had a thing for Giffords, IIRC. I think he harassed her or stalked her or something prior to this. If we are going to blame anyone else for inspiring Loughner's actions, why not look at the person we know he actually paid attention to? So far as I know, there is no evidence that he paid any attention to Sarah Palin or knew about her crosshairs map from his own interest. What if it was the object of his attention sniveling about how the mean lady with no actual power was scaring her that got Loughner thinking "If she wants to be afraid, I'll give her something to be scared of!"We're in Sarah Palin's 'targeted' list, but the thing is that the way she has it depicted, we're in the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they've got to realize that there are consequences to that action.
Care to take a wild "shot" at the speaker?
US Representative Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ) ten months before Jared Loughner shot her in the head.
She already had something to be scared of; the militia leaders call to tear up peoples offices got her office torn up, and when responding to that she noted that Palins imagery engendered other concerns. If that's blood libel after someone tries to kill her it was blood libel then, yes; I'm glad SOMEONE finally got my point. Maybe when Palin goes to Giffords' hospital bed to make the accusation to her face ya'll can split a cab.
Why, if I were Sarah Palin I'd fly to that hospital and tell her to watch her mouth! Though she's still unable to speak; maybe the "blood libel" has solved itself: YOU'RE safe now, Sarah! How tragic that nearly being murdered has blinded Rep. Giffords to the REAL victim: Sarah Palin. :vomits:
So she's just supposed to roll over and accept the blame for something she had absolutely nothing to do with? Not to mention the kind of crap that's been dumped on her all out of proportion to her actual importance or transgressions has probably made lashing back a defensive reflex by now. When thousands of people are accusing of complicity in a mass murder, sensitivity should not be a requirement in your defense.No, she shouldn't accept all or anywhere near most of the blame, Loughner was a nut who decided to shoot someone and that's his responsibility first and foremost. HOWEVER, it seems absurd to say the climate of militant hatred Palin and others have stirred up since Obamas election doesn't encourage such behavior, or that this guy was so disconnected from the rest of the world that he was unaware of it. That doesn't make Palin or anyone else who provides triggers for this kind of behavior perpetrators of it, but it doesn't leave them blameless either.
It was logical for the media to connect Palins imagery with the attack, since Rep. Gifford did, too,a year before it happened. If someone had been running all over Britain yelling, "Blast Parliament!" in the summer of 1605, most people would probably have thought Guy Fawkes had them in mind that November.
And if Gifford had been VOTED OUT OF OFFICE as Palin was encouraging, then you could assing a share of the "blame" to Palin. Your disingenuous comparison does not change the fact that the and concepts of "target" and "aim" and other shooting imagery are routinely used without the slightest violent intention or connotation.They are, but to use so many of them so casually is irresponsible and asking for trouble, and if that makes me guilty of blood libel it makes Giffords no less so. Maybe we should wait until she's walking and talking again before we punish her great crime though, eh? And while I don't visit Kos and haven't seen them using bullseyes in the same way, I did notice references by others to the same kind of irresponsible behavior there and condemn it equally (irresponsibile inflammatory language isn't exactly surprising from Kos, but that makes it worse, not better).
It was irresponsible not to wait for all the facts before publicizing those suspicions, true; on the other hand, Ms. Palin is in no position to lecture anyone on careless language. I don't believe for a moment she intended or expected this to happen, but she SHOULD'VE expected that in a nation of 300 million there was a good chance some nut would take her literally, and if she didn't I don't want her running the local quickie mart. Yeah, a lot of liberals were too quick to shout, "J'ACCUSE!" but Palin in particular was far too eager to wash her hands of it, and the only reason she didn't do it quicker is probably because she spent the first couple days making calls to see if she'd gotten six people killed and injured thirteen more. She knows it, I know it and the American people ought to know it.
Sorry, I REALLY didn't want to examine the potential political relevance to this horrible tragedy, and I really don't think the connection with Palin is more than eerie coincidence. We don't know; Loughner's saying nothing. However, it very easily COULD'VE been connected, so easily that the first victim EXPECTED something like this based solely on Palins comments and imagery, and calling that "blood libel" is quite literally blaming the victim. Whatever happened to "personal accountability"? Were those just more words we shouldn't take seriously...?
You dare to invoke those words while attempting to foist off ANY of the blame for a single individual's actions on a complete stranger based on images there is no proof he saw? Jodie Foster has more guilt for the shooting of James Brady than Palin (or Beck or Limbaugh or whoever the left's bete noir of the day happens to be) bears for this.Sorry, I REALLY didn't want to examine the potential political relevance to this horrible tragedy, and I really don't think the connection with Palin is more than eerie coincidence. We don't know; Loughner's saying nothing. However, it very easily COULD'VE been connected, so easily that the first victim EXPECTED something like this based solely on Palins comments and imagery, and calling that "blood libel" is quite literally blaming the victim. Whatever happened to "personal accountability"? Were those just more words we shouldn't take seriously...?
Six people are dead and thirteen others injured but Palin's playing the victim and talking about blood libel; you really wanna talk about who "dares to invoke" what words? You wanna invoke Brady? Brady prompted a law requiring background checks prior to gun purchases so nuts like John Hinckley Jr. couldn't get them two days after leaving the psych ward, but thanks people like Palin and Loughner insisting that law somehow infringed on their rights, it sailed off into the sunset six years ago, so "John Hinckley III" had no trouble getting a gun two weeks ago. He had SOME trouble getting ammo; the first Wal$Mart he visited thought he was too freaky and wouldn't sell it to him--so he went to another and they were happy to sell it to him. So let's be consistent; if we're gonna blame it all on the victims, it's Brady and Giffords' fault and Loughner and Hinckleys hands are as clean as Palins.
When people use inflammatory violent language against their political opponents they shouldn't be shocked if those opponents feel threatened, nor accuse them of libel for stating those fears--especially when literal ensuing violence puts them and a dozen others in the hospital while six people lie dead.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
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LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 18/01/2011 at 07:00:38 PM
OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM
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Why are they calling it "blood libel"?
16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM
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Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable.
16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM
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It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but...
16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM
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I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already
16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM
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Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread.
16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM
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She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either
16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM
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I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it.
16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM
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Oh please don't you start to
17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM
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I for one hadn't noticed it before.
17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM
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it was used here and nobody commented
17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM
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LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here
17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM
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It's funny you should say that...
18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM
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Precisely: I noticed, but it hadn't become a rallying cry for "the real victim" (Palin).
19/01/2011 12:14:48 AM
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I thought you were the real vicitim
19/01/2011 02:49:06 PM
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When and where did I say that? The ultimate victim is America, but six members of it just died.
19/01/2011 11:24:27 PM
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Re: It's funny you should say that...
19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM
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It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry.
20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM
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Oh, I noticed that one alright.
18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM
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but is he accussed of being a tasteless moron who doesn't know what it means?
19/01/2011 02:28:03 PM
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I don't know, if I have to judge him based on that one article, then tasteless moron, absolutely.
19/01/2011 06:14:43 PM
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The peole who called her stupid for using the term didn't know it was so wide spread either
17/01/2011 02:33:19 PM
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Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM
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Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM
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Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her.
17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM
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That means precisely nothing
17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM
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It means everything.
18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM
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I'm trying to understand your logic
19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM
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There are two points:
19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM
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I don't agree, but I understand. *NM*
19/01/2011 10:14:13 PM
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Giffords' statements and Palins are matters of public record; they're indisputable.
19/01/2011 11:34:53 PM
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I must say, if more people on both sides could say that we'd all be better for it.
20/01/2011 04:32:55 AM
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the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument
19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM
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Your inability/unwillingness to follow basic and clearly delineated logic is not my failing.
20/01/2011 01:19:31 AM
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I admit I can't follow gnome logic *NM*
20/01/2011 05:50:22 AM
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I demonstrated the connection, whether or not you choose to look the other way.
20/01/2011 03:16:28 PM
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that is some twisted and bizarre logic
17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM
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Giffords said Palins crosshairs imagery would have "consequences"; Palin calls the suggestion libel.
18/01/2011 08:54:45 PM
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yes but the only consequences is liberals using them to slander Palin
19/01/2011 02:58:35 PM
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I read Toms reply; I don't think he exactly vindicated your position, nor meant to do so.
20/01/2011 01:52:37 AM
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It was an example of blaming the victim, a phrase you keep misusing
20/01/2011 06:28:21 PM
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I thought you said only liberals blinded by political bias committed that grave sin.
20/01/2011 07:47:09 PM
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so in other words you again missed the point
20/01/2011 08:26:49 PM
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Well, one of us did.
20/01/2011 09:24:35 PM
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so lets be clear do you or don't you understand what it means to "blame the vicitm"?
20/01/2011 10:03:48 PM
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I understand it well; can we be equally clear you say the victim here is Palin?
20/01/2011 10:44:08 PM
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So I am a little confused on something...
16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM
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Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this
16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM
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If I understand what you are saying correctly...
17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM
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I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM
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Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM
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The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically.
18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM
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No, they don't
18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM
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Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one.
18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM
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You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said
19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM
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I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice)
20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM
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The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity
20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM
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More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice?
20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM
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really because people post that kind of crap daily and nothing happens
20/01/2011 05:57:52 PM
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I thought waterboarding was OK and any suggestion to the contrary was terrorist sympathizing.
20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM
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way to dodge the point again
20/01/2011 08:34:33 PM
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Do you have an example of a credible threat of injury to a Congressman, or calls for one?
20/01/2011 10:02:53 PM
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Your shifting your original premise, *again*
20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM
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No, you're simply missing the point of it.
20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM
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Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book.
16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM
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Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither.
16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM
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conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto
17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM
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That first line is says it all.
18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM
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Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist
19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM
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The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power".
20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM
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It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central...
16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM
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Again, I don't think Palin intended this, but Giffords feared ten months ago that this could result.
16/01/2011 11:29:19 PM
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And I call bullshit
18/01/2011 03:12:13 PM
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If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face.
18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM
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So if some jihadist shot Gifford, would you also blame Palin?
19/01/2011 02:52:42 PM
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don't get ti doesn't matter who is to blame it just matters if they can use it *NM*
19/01/2011 04:11:09 PM
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No, I'd blame the shooter first and the mullahs shouting, "JIHAD111" second, as I always do.
20/01/2011 03:11:33 AM
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Then why are you even here? I pretty much agree with you entirely and I'm fairly liberal. *NM*
18/01/2011 01:16:33 PM
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Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed.
16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM
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Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM*
17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM
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I didn't realize someone had, but it appears a militia leader was responsible (shocking, I know).
17/01/2011 07:04:08 AM
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politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM*
17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM
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She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah.
18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM
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Took you this long, huh?
17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM
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I didn't want to look because I was afraid the charges against the far right demagogues might stick.
18/01/2011 11:07:26 PM
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I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy
17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM
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I'm just curious.
17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM
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Had that convo with the cab driver on the way home from a New Years party.
18/01/2011 11:42:07 PM
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If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ).
18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM
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mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity
19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM
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A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs?
20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM
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so it is all a matter of faith for you
20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM
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No, it's fairly straight forward logic.
20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM
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sorry Joel but you haven't
20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM
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It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that.
20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM
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only in your does the connection exisit
20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM
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No.
20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM
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dude wake up
20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM
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Fine, I have no problem dropping the "right" label in my condemnations.
20/01/2011 10:39:34 PM
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Why not just blame Giffords?
17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM
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Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does.
18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM
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The left are the ones storing up hate with their pathetic slaner
18/01/2011 07:53:23 PM
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At least 95% of the blame is Loughners; he's a nut, but that doesn't exonerate the demagogues.
18/01/2011 11:24:11 PM
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0% belongs to political rhetoric from the right
19/01/2011 02:47:56 PM
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Uh huh; it's absurd to mention right wing rhetoric when left wing rhetoric is the OBVIOUS culprit
19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM
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No leftist rhetoric? You just called a bunch of people 'dangeorus lunatics'
19/01/2011 03:37:54 PM
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Rhetoric is one thing, but I didn't use violent imagery, did I?
20/01/2011 01:40:14 AM
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no but the democratic party used very similar images in the same state
20/01/2011 06:41:19 PM
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It's news to me, but I condemn all violent inflammatory imagery and rhetoric.
20/01/2011 07:13:18 PM
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it was the national democrats
20/01/2011 08:32:01 PM
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Then that's equally dangerous and reprehensible and more reason to loathe the DLC and DCCC.
20/01/2011 09:49:08 PM
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The right is not the ones claiming rhetoric is the issue
19/01/2011 03:58:39 PM
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"WE aren't doing it, except for when we are". Admission of guilt is a poor defense.
20/01/2011 03:25:16 AM
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The irony of this thread is not lost on me.
19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM
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Bizarre thread for that Soapbox
19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM
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You missed the point, obviously.
19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM
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That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long.
19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM
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Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM
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We can debate whether it's coincidental, but the connections are documented fact
22/01/2011 08:17:24 PM
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