Active Users:323 Time:03/04/2025 11:41:58 PM
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules
Why not just blame Giffords? Cannoli Send a noteboard - 17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM
Not because I'm a liberal, though I am, and not because Loughner's a conservative (his own friends say he was neither right nor left, and Ayn Rand and Mein Kampf are strange favorites for liberals). It's because of one of the best examples of what Ms. Palin and others call "blood libel":
We're in Sarah Palin's 'targeted' list, but the thing is that the way she has it depicted, we're in the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they've got to realize that there are consequences to that action.

Care to take a wild "shot" at the speaker?

US Representative Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ) ten months before Jared Loughner shot her in the head.
And there is actual evidence that he had a thing for Giffords, IIRC. I think he harassed her or stalked her or something prior to this. If we are going to blame anyone else for inspiring Loughner's actions, why not look at the person we know he actually paid attention to? So far as I know, there is no evidence that he paid any attention to Sarah Palin or knew about her crosshairs map from his own interest. What if it was the object of his attention sniveling about how the mean lady with no actual power was scaring her that got Loughner thinking "If she wants to be afraid, I'll give her something to be scared of!"

Why, if I were Sarah Palin I'd fly to that hospital and tell her to watch her mouth! Though she's still unable to speak; maybe the "blood libel" has solved itself: YOU'RE safe now, Sarah! How tragic that nearly being murdered has blinded Rep. Giffords to the REAL victim: Sarah Palin. :vomits:
So she's just supposed to roll over and accept the blame for something she had absolutely nothing to do with? Not to mention the kind of crap that's been dumped on her all out of proportion to her actual importance or transgressions has probably made lashing back a defensive reflex by now. When thousands of people are accusing of complicity in a mass murder, sensitivity should not be a requirement in your defense.

It was logical for the media to connect Palins imagery with the attack, since Rep. Gifford did, too,a year before it happened. If someone had been running all over Britain yelling, "Blast Parliament!" in the summer of 1605, most people would probably have thought Guy Fawkes had them in mind that November.
And if Gifford had been VOTED OUT OF OFFICE as Palin was encouraging, then you could assing a share of the "blame" to Palin. Your disingenuous comparison does not change the fact that the and concepts of "target" and "aim" and other shooting imagery are routinely used without the slightest violent intention or connotation.

It was irresponsible not to wait for all the facts before publicizing those suspicions, true; on the other hand, Ms. Palin is in no position to lecture anyone on careless language. I don't believe for a moment she intended or expected this to happen, but she SHOULD'VE expected that in a nation of 300 million there was a good chance some nut would take her literally, and if she didn't I don't want her running the local quickie mart. Yeah, a lot of liberals were too quick to shout, "J'ACCUSE!" but Palin in particular was far too eager to wash her hands of it, and the only reason she didn't do it quicker is probably because she spent the first couple days making calls to see if she'd gotten six people killed and injured thirteen more. She knows it, I know it and the American people ought to know it.

Sorry, I REALLY didn't want to examine the potential political relevance to this horrible tragedy, and I really don't think the connection with Palin is more than eerie coincidence. We don't know; Loughner's saying nothing. However, it very easily COULD'VE been connected, so easily that the first victim EXPECTED something like this based solely on Palins comments and imagery, and calling that "blood libel" is quite literally blaming the victim. Whatever happened to "personal accountability"? Were those just more words we shouldn't take seriously...?
You dare to invoke those words while attempting to foist off ANY of the blame for a single individual's actions on a complete stranger based on images there is no proof he saw? Jodie Foster has more guilt for the shooting of James Brady than Palin (or Beck or Limbaugh or whoever the left's bete noir of the day happens to be) bears for this.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
Reply to message
OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. Joel - 16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM 2071 Views
Why are they calling it "blood libel"? Camilla - 16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM 925 Views
Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable. Joel - 16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM 1102 Views
It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but... Legolas - 16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM 1149 Views
That's why I said, "popularized". Joel - 16/01/2011 01:46:52 PM 1093 Views
I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already Isaac - 16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM 1456 Views
Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread. Legolas - 16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM 1000 Views
She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either Isaac - 16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM 1016 Views
I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. Legolas - 16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM 1017 Views
Re: I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. Isaac - 16/01/2011 11:30:38 PM 931 Views
Oh please don't you start to random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM 874 Views
I for one hadn't noticed it before. Legolas - 17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM 1057 Views
it was used here and nobody commented random thoughts - 17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM 939 Views
LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here Isaac - 17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM 989 Views
It's funny you should say that... Legolas - 18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM 1029 Views
Precisely: I noticed, but it hadn't become a rallying cry for "the real victim" (Palin). Joel - 19/01/2011 12:14:48 AM 1141 Views
I thought you were the real vicitim random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:49:06 PM 1105 Views
When and where did I say that? The ultimate victim is America, but six members of it just died. Joel - 19/01/2011 11:24:27 PM 831 Views
Re: It's funny you should say that... Isaac - 19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM 1007 Views
It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry. Joel - 20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM 1047 Views
A rallying cry is hardly illegal Isaac - 20/01/2011 05:32:45 PM 1092 Views
I never said it was. Joel - 20/01/2011 06:59:39 PM 1189 Views
Oh, I noticed that one alright. Legolas - 18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM 866 Views
but is he accussed of being a tasteless moron who doesn't know what it means? random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:28:03 PM 910 Views
I don't know, if I have to judge him based on that one article, then tasteless moron, absolutely. Legolas - 19/01/2011 06:14:43 PM 1025 Views
compared to the way similar terms are used? random thoughts - 19/01/2011 06:58:02 PM 1010 Views
I meant I hadn't seen it used in different contexts before. Legolas - 19/01/2011 07:35:00 PM 991 Views
The peole who called her stupid for using the term didn't know it was so wide spread either random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:33:19 PM 895 Views
Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. Joel - 16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM 1075 Views
Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. Isaac - 16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM 1108 Views
Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her. Joel - 17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM 1254 Views
That means precisely nothing Isaac - 17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM 943 Views
It means everything. Joel - 18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM 1205 Views
I'm trying to understand your logic Chas - 19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM 815 Views
There are two points: Joel - 19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM 1017 Views
I don't agree, but I understand. *NM* Chas - 19/01/2011 10:14:13 PM 483 Views
Giffords' statements and Palins are matters of public record; they're indisputable. Joel - 19/01/2011 11:34:53 PM 988 Views
I must say, if more people on both sides could say that we'd all be better for it. Joel - 20/01/2011 04:32:55 AM 1030 Views
Re: It means everything. Isaac - 19/01/2011 05:55:02 PM 842 Views
That's simply illogical. Joel - 20/01/2011 01:08:51 AM 1225 Views
the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument random thoughts - 19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM 1099 Views
Your inability/unwillingness to follow basic and clearly delineated logic is not my failing. Joel - 20/01/2011 01:19:31 AM 951 Views
I admit I can't follow gnome logic *NM* random thoughts - 20/01/2011 05:50:22 AM 476 Views
I demonstrated the connection, whether or not you choose to look the other way. Joel - 20/01/2011 03:16:28 PM 991 Views
that is some twisted and bizarre logic random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM 1045 Views
Giffords said Palins crosshairs imagery would have "consequences"; Palin calls the suggestion libel. Joel - 18/01/2011 08:54:45 PM 939 Views
yes but the only consequences is liberals using them to slander Palin random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:58:35 PM 1011 Views
I read Toms reply; I don't think he exactly vindicated your position, nor meant to do so. Joel - 20/01/2011 01:52:37 AM 1274 Views
It was an example of blaming the victim, a phrase you keep misusing random thoughts - 20/01/2011 06:28:21 PM 968 Views
I thought you said only liberals blinded by political bias committed that grave sin. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:47:09 PM 1011 Views
so in other words you again missed the point random thoughts - 20/01/2011 08:26:49 PM 949 Views
Well, one of us did. Joel - 20/01/2011 09:24:35 PM 1083 Views
so lets be clear do you or don't you understand what it means to "blame the vicitm"? random thoughts - 20/01/2011 10:03:48 PM 700 Views
I understand it well; can we be equally clear you say the victim here is Palin? Joel - 20/01/2011 10:44:08 PM 1150 Views
So I am a little confused on something... MightyYT - 16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM 1092 Views
Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this Joel - 16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM 1228 Views
If I understand what you are saying correctly... MightyYT - 17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM 972 Views
I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. Joel - 17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM 983 Views
Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. Isaac - 17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM 1043 Views
The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically. Joel - 18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM 858 Views
No, they don't Isaac - 18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM 1055 Views
Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one. Joel - 18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM 1136 Views
You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said Isaac - 19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM 991 Views
I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice) Joel - 20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM 1024 Views
The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity Isaac - 20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM 1084 Views
More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice? Joel - 20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM 1107 Views
really because people post that kind of crap daily and nothing happens random thoughts - 20/01/2011 05:57:52 PM 936 Views
I thought waterboarding was OK and any suggestion to the contrary was terrorist sympathizing. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM 872 Views
way to dodge the point again random thoughts - 20/01/2011 08:34:33 PM 899 Views
Do you have an example of a credible threat of injury to a Congressman, or calls for one? Joel - 20/01/2011 10:02:53 PM 973 Views
Your shifting your original premise, *again* Isaac - 20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM 953 Views
No, you're simply missing the point of it. Joel - 20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM 972 Views
There is no point Isaac - 21/01/2011 12:22:30 AM 1001 Views
If I had no point I wouldn't bother, but fair enough. Joel - 21/01/2011 01:20:32 AM 1249 Views
Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book. Dragonsoul - 16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM 1263 Views
You're awesome at missing points, aren't you? Dannymac - 16/01/2011 07:26:30 PM 1013 Views
where is the accountability for those committing slander? random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:52:40 PM 934 Views
Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither. Joel - 16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM 961 Views
conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM 952 Views
That first line is says it all. Joel - 18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM 1031 Views
Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist random thoughts - 19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM 1141 Views
The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power". Joel - 20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM 1024 Views
and that is supposed to mean something? random thoughts - 20/01/2011 06:06:18 PM 1028 Views
YOU are cherry picking. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:50:21 PM 965 Views
It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central... Shannow - 16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM 1233 Views
See my reply to Dragonsoul above. Dannymac - 16/01/2011 07:30:40 PM 1077 Views
Yeah, your first was better Isaac - 16/01/2011 09:48:58 PM 890 Views
Again, I don't think Palin intended this, but Giffords feared ten months ago that this could result. Joel - 16/01/2011 11:29:19 PM 1038 Views
And I call bullshit Cannoli - 18/01/2011 03:12:13 PM 1171 Views
If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face. Joel - 18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM 1133 Views
So if some jihadist shot Gifford, would you also blame Palin? Shannow - 19/01/2011 02:52:42 PM 1021 Views
don't get ti doesn't matter who is to blame it just matters if they can use it *NM* random thoughts - 19/01/2011 04:11:09 PM 477 Views
No, I'd blame the shooter first and the mullahs shouting, "JIHAD111" second, as I always do. Joel - 20/01/2011 03:11:33 AM 1117 Views
Then why are you even here? I pretty much agree with you entirely and I'm fairly liberal. *NM* Elaine - 18/01/2011 01:16:33 PM 564 Views
Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed. Tom - 16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM 950 Views
Pretty much. Joel - 16/01/2011 11:44:35 PM 1035 Views
Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM* Tashmere - 17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM 475 Views
I didn't realize someone had, but it appears a militia leader was responsible (shocking, I know). Joel - 17/01/2011 07:04:08 AM 977 Views
politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM* random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM 445 Views
She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM 921 Views
OK Olberman when did I imply otherwise? *NM* random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:48:41 PM 484 Views
"Political offices are vandalized on a regular basis". Joel - 20/01/2011 03:16:39 AM 1111 Views
Took you this long, huh? Macharius - 17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM 867 Views
I didn't want to look because I was afraid the charges against the far right demagogues might stick. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:07:26 PM 1203 Views
I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM 897 Views
I'm just curious. callandor1000 - 17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM 860 Views
Re: I'm just curious. Camilla - 17/01/2011 03:28:04 PM 1008 Views
I always said I'd do that after Bush was re-elected. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:52:45 PM 884 Views
like I said a matter of faith random thoughts - 17/01/2011 04:27:51 PM 875 Views
I find it interesting... Jeordam - 17/01/2011 05:31:54 PM 1026 Views
I mention her looks solely because... callandor1000 - 20/01/2011 02:30:42 PM 909 Views
Had that convo with the cab driver on the way home from a New Years party. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:42:07 PM 1155 Views
If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ). Joel - 18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM 1080 Views
mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity random thoughts - 19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM 894 Views
A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs? Joel - 20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM 936 Views
so it is all a matter of faith for you random thoughts - 20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM 889 Views
No, it's fairly straight forward logic. Joel - 20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM 996 Views
sorry Joel but you haven't random thoughts - 20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM 799 Views
It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that. Joel - 20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM 883 Views
only in your does the connection exisit random thoughts - 20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM 927 Views
No. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM 1005 Views
dude wake up random thoughts - 20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM 1141 Views
Fine, I have no problem dropping the "right" label in my condemnations. Joel - 20/01/2011 10:39:34 PM 1129 Views
So in your opinion... Jeordam - 17/01/2011 05:27:58 PM 878 Views
How 'bout simply color coding them? Joel - 18/01/2011 11:21:03 PM 925 Views
Why not just blame Giffords? Cannoli - 17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM 1220 Views
Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does. Joel - 18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM 1052 Views
The left are the ones storing up hate with their pathetic slaner random thoughts - 18/01/2011 07:53:23 PM 997 Views
At least 95% of the blame is Loughners; he's a nut, but that doesn't exonerate the demagogues. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:24:11 PM 1096 Views
0% belongs to political rhetoric from the right random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:47:56 PM 866 Views
Uh huh; it's absurd to mention right wing rhetoric when left wing rhetoric is the OBVIOUS culprit Joel - 19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM 909 Views
No leftist rhetoric? You just called a bunch of people 'dangeorus lunatics' Isaac - 19/01/2011 03:37:54 PM 864 Views
Rhetoric is one thing, but I didn't use violent imagery, did I? Joel - 20/01/2011 01:40:14 AM 1197 Views
no but the democratic party used very similar images in the same state random thoughts - 20/01/2011 06:41:19 PM 937 Views
It's news to me, but I condemn all violent inflammatory imagery and rhetoric. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:13:18 PM 899 Views
it was the national democrats random thoughts - 20/01/2011 08:32:01 PM 1004 Views
Then that's equally dangerous and reprehensible and more reason to loathe the DLC and DCCC. Joel - 20/01/2011 09:49:08 PM 1268 Views
The right is not the ones claiming rhetoric is the issue random thoughts - 19/01/2011 03:58:39 PM 913 Views
"WE aren't doing it, except for when we are". Admission of guilt is a poor defense. Joel - 20/01/2011 03:25:16 AM 888 Views
The irony of this thread is not lost on me. Jacob - 19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM 1066 Views
Exactly. *NM* Avendesora - 19/01/2011 04:51:40 PM 526 Views
Bizarre thread for that Soapbox Isaac - 19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM 808 Views
You missed the point, obviously. Jacob - 19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM 915 Views
so you are saying it is the same old RAFO random thoughts - 19/01/2011 06:47:24 PM 989 Views
The thread has admittedly degenerated Isaac - 19/01/2011 07:02:12 PM 839 Views
Check your NB. Noted you a response. *NM* Jacob - 19/01/2011 07:04:58 PM 510 Views
That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long. Joel - 19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM 1070 Views
Hey, now. I have to step in. Camilla - 20/01/2011 04:44:49 PM 1095 Views
I'm just saying a significant link can be demonstrated. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:07:27 PM 1139 Views
Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. dart_board - 22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM 1079 Views
We can debate whether it's coincidental, but the connections are documented fact Joel - 22/01/2011 08:17:24 PM 1053 Views
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules

Reply to Message

Block Quote Paragraph Quote
Formatting
Smiley Codes