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You can use anything to prove what you want if you are willing to spin it hard enough random thoughts Send a noteboard - 14/01/2011 02:57:29 PM
Here is a study that shows significantly different spatial skills already appearing in infants. It doesn’t offer an explanation for why there is a difference but offers evidence that is hard to argue with short expanding the sampling size to rule out errors.

We shouldn't ignore evidence just because we don't like the implications. We also shouldn’t over read it, I wouldn’t discourage my daughter from being an engineer.


Which is a shame, 'cos I'd like to see the study, but it's also easily fixed. Expanding samples to reduce error is always a good idea, which is one of the benefits of multiple studies, but beyond a certain point you get marginal returns. *resists the urge to discuss FL exit polling in 2000 and 2004*

1) We have a study that indicates infant boys, as a whole, tend to have better spatial reasoning than infant girls, while noting that doesn't preclude individual girls performing as well, just that it's more common in boys,


We have a study that shows infant to do considerably better then infant girls at spatial reasoning. Nobody is claiming that girls can't do just that boys on average do it better. The study supports the argument that the average boy will do better then the average girl but that some girls will do better then the average boy. Which is what I have been saying all along.

2) Overall, math achievement is roughly equal, because spatial reasoning is just one aspect of math ability,


Sorry but as I mentioned before blanket statement do not qualify as arguments. Do you have any reasoning to back up that claim? Now girls do as well in the early math classes as boys higher math requires spatial reasoning so no they are not equal.

3) "If girls think they don’t do well in a subject, they have a diminished interest in it". I'd say that applies to all students; people who expect to fail usually find a way to make it happen, regardless of their sex, and probably the number of boys who suck at cooking is similar to the number of girls who suck at math because of social sexual norms, but most importantly,


That is just an argument to ignore reality because we don't like it. Do you have a study that shows boys under perform girls in some critical cooking skill? Do you have some study that shows men under perform women in the highest levels of cooking?

The study was done with infants to remove the argument that social norms were playing a factor.

4) None of the preconditioning involved in that, either biological or social, is set in stone, and at the end of the day the success of any one child in any one area will have more to do with individual ability as well as the ability of educators and parents to stimulate interest and encourage performance than it has to do with either the subject or the students sex.


that is statement of faith not science. No matter how badly a girls wants to be a NFL football player she never will and not because the boys want let her but because she just won't be good enough. She will be to small, to weak and to slow.

Natural ability does matter. all of the education in the world will make a long term impact on IQ test results. It is possible that we can develop early learning education that will improve spatial skills but unless it only helps females it will simply raise the bar.

There appears to be a sex advantage IN ONE AREA, overall achievement is roughly equal, at least to a point, but girls tend to have less interest in math because they're expected to perform more poorly; nevertheless, most developmentally normal children can succeed in any field if what native ability they have is stimulated and encouraged. Perhaps that's the biggest factor in what IS "developmentally normal".


It is critical area. You say there is equal achievement to point but you are ignoring that it is the point where things get hard and where math really starts to matter. Saying you do well at math except for geometry and calculus means you are not good at higher math. Not being good at higher math means you will have a hell of time do most hard science.

Thanks for the link, it was quite interesting.

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Looks like the feminist movement wasn't as successful as it appears random thoughts - 11/01/2011 06:21:01 PM 2056 Views
I think you're extrapolating a bit too much beetnemesis - 11/01/2011 06:45:38 PM 1138 Views
The aricle does mention that women feel pressured to work when they did not want to random thoughts - 11/01/2011 06:48:47 PM 1122 Views
I don't trust the figures. Rebekah - 11/01/2011 06:50:24 PM 1142 Views
One assumes the latter, to the extent that "same job with same experience" can be defined. *NM* Legolas - 12/01/2011 07:10:13 PM 586 Views
One might assume that, but it's not necessarily so. Rebekah - 12/01/2011 08:58:14 PM 1098 Views
While I don't 100% agree with the article, some feminists annoy me no end. Rebekah - 11/01/2011 06:47:03 PM 1158 Views
My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career random thoughts - 11/01/2011 06:52:11 PM 1148 Views
Re: My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career Rebekah - 11/01/2011 09:35:43 PM 1130 Views
Re: My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career Avendesora - 12/01/2011 01:36:14 AM 1145 Views
Yeah, got one like that, too. Joel - 12/01/2011 02:17:17 AM 1134 Views
yeah prett much anything gross that isn't in a diaper is my job random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:12:11 AM 1077 Views
It's not just that choice though. Sareitha Sedai - 11/01/2011 07:12:48 PM 1196 Views
It feels more hypocritical coming from feminists than "traditionalists". *NM* Rebekah - 11/01/2011 07:17:24 PM 619 Views
For you maybe. Sareitha Sedai - 11/01/2011 07:27:52 PM 1135 Views
there is definitely some SAHM snobbery random thoughts - 11/01/2011 08:43:21 PM 1098 Views
Well. Rebekah - 11/01/2011 09:34:42 PM 1170 Views
I agree. I would also like to add, if I may... Avendesora - 12/01/2011 01:27:59 AM 1137 Views
all 25 of them? random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:14:56 AM 1079 Views
Pffft, look it up a bit. You might find info on the national propaganda radio (NPR) site. Avendesora - 12/01/2011 12:47:33 PM 1104 Views
It's a difficult dynamic even under the best of circumstances, when both partners have chosen it. Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 02:25:20 PM 985 Views
I agree, it's very difficult. Avendesora - 12/01/2011 03:14:59 PM 1031 Views
it is nuanced random thoughts - 12/01/2011 03:06:39 PM 1054 Views
Re: it is nuanced Avendesora - 12/01/2011 04:58:36 PM 1077 Views
You are spot on. As usual. About everything. *NM* Tashmere - 12/01/2011 01:42:18 AM 657 Views
Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 02:25:59 PM 1047 Views
I have to admit that this bothers me. rebelaessedai - 11/01/2011 07:33:09 PM 1146 Views
I don't expect people to understand my choice necessarily. Rebekah - 11/01/2011 09:36:52 PM 1160 Views
In addition... Jacob - 12/01/2011 05:39:25 PM 1043 Views
I guess you think the same of me then. Clover - 11/01/2011 09:48:31 PM 1027 Views
Another one? rebelaessedai - 12/01/2011 06:01:43 AM 1055 Views
Re: Another one? Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:33:58 PM 1089 Views
~never mind~ *NM* *NM* Aeryn - 12/01/2011 04:42:47 PM 713 Views
I'm going to answer you anyway. Rebekah - 12/01/2011 04:54:18 PM 1155 Views
not to mention nossy - 12/01/2011 05:11:42 PM 1092 Views
In addition Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 05:23:25 PM 1029 Views
you don't want kids? random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:46:25 PM 1045 Views
bleck nossy - 12/01/2011 11:14:25 PM 1044 Views
again not the vibe I get from you random thoughts - 12/01/2011 11:38:26 PM 1031 Views
Hehe. Clover - 13/01/2011 12:15:06 AM 1081 Views
Not selfish. Tashmere - 13/01/2011 02:45:43 AM 1043 Views
You don't have to be a doctor to contribute to the world random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:27:26 PM 1103 Views
Poor Aeryn Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 05:29:47 PM 1031 Views
I replied before she edited random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:41:53 PM 984 Views
Am I at least absolved from having to respond? Aeryn - 15/01/2011 06:11:27 AM 1071 Views
Certainly. *NM* Rebekah - 15/01/2011 09:40:09 AM 657 Views
The primary issue... Jacob - 12/01/2011 05:52:42 PM 1008 Views
*NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 05:54:29 PM 587 Views
Agreed; ironically, that first line applies to this thread and mine with the parenting article. Joel - 13/01/2011 10:00:28 PM 1162 Views
What Rebekah said... Clover - 15/01/2011 07:55:34 PM 1018 Views
Me too! Clover - 11/01/2011 09:43:57 PM 1104 Views
Re: Me too! Darth_Katie - 12/01/2011 01:23:39 AM 1098 Views
It has been a long, long time since I have seen a woman getting looked down on for staying at home. Tashmere - 12/01/2011 01:48:42 AM 978 Views
I have a fiancee like that. Joel - 12/01/2011 02:14:53 AM 1047 Views
I feel so fortunate to be a stay at home mom. Beqi - 12/01/2011 11:32:37 PM 1010 Views
My commentary on the whys and wherefores of this stuff would be way too politically incorrect SilverWarder - 11/01/2011 07:56:24 PM 1145 Views
I think all of that makes sense random thoughts - 11/01/2011 08:36:39 PM 1072 Views
In this particular case I don't disagree with you. SilverWarder - 11/01/2011 09:28:13 PM 992 Views
I'm not sure why either sex should surpass the other in math. Joel - 12/01/2011 02:34:09 AM 980 Views
men have more physical strength period random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:30:14 AM 1003 Views
There's a lot more to running (especially marathons) then leg strength. Joel - 12/01/2011 05:41:11 AM 988 Views
how much time the experts spend being wrong doesn't make them less wrong random thoughts - 12/01/2011 03:16:10 PM 996 Views
How much more time they've spent studying it before drawing conclusions makes a big difference. Joel - 12/01/2011 05:42:26 PM 998 Views
your right it is just a coincidence that their results always matches their politics random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:56:03 PM 1047 Views
There's definitely such a thing as a self fulfilling prophecy. Joel - 12/01/2011 07:00:23 PM 1008 Views
so you would trust them if they only admitted conseratives? random thoughts - 12/01/2011 09:51:00 PM 1029 Views
Admitted? No, but they'll take anyone with the grades. Joel - 13/01/2011 09:47:42 PM 1017 Views
Every study I have seen shows most schools have few to no non-leberal proffesors random thoughts - 13/01/2011 10:07:08 PM 960 Views
Every study I've ever seen shows that math and science fields have few to no women. Joel - 13/01/2011 10:42:46 PM 1076 Views
not when we know men are better at math thewpmen are random thoughts - 13/01/2011 11:10:18 PM 1103 Views
Sigh... we know no such thing, and even if we did, it would be those biased liberals telling us. Joel - 13/01/2011 11:30:33 PM 917 Views
When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 03:47:53 PM 1050 Views
Re: When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math Macharius - 12/01/2011 04:32:38 PM 965 Views
Re: When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 04:41:42 PM 1042 Views
Both, really; the latter is a consequence of the former. Joel - 12/01/2011 05:21:28 PM 938 Views
I'm trying to understand your position Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 05:28:43 PM 996 Views
try string theory, it makes more sense than Joel logic random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:57:27 PM 955 Views
Now you've got it. Joel - 12/01/2011 06:40:50 PM 1099 Views
Okay, that's fair. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 06:42:30 PM 569 Views
Glad we were able to reach an understanding. Joel - 13/01/2011 10:02:47 PM 990 Views
Re: I'm trying to understand your position Camilla - 13/01/2011 08:12:05 PM 1030 Views
we know the brain of women works differently then the brains of men random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:40:15 PM 1039 Views
What evidence I'm aware of seems inconclusive. Joel - 12/01/2011 06:46:50 PM 918 Views
There are theories but of course they are unprovable random thoughts - 12/01/2011 10:50:08 PM 1011 Views
That's a logical rationale, and might even be accurate, but in this case I want hard evidence. Joel - 13/01/2011 09:03:32 PM 926 Views
I think if you look you find you believe all sorts of things that can't be proven random thoughts - 13/01/2011 10:03:54 PM 985 Views
I have, and have frequently argued everyone holds such beliefs. Joel - 13/01/2011 10:33:01 PM 878 Views
here is some evdience to argue that it is not society but biology random thoughts - 13/01/2011 08:43:43 PM 1035 Views
I think you did like I always do and forgot to give us a way to click your link. Joel - 13/01/2011 09:56:52 PM 1035 Views
oops random thoughts - 13/01/2011 10:07:55 PM 1078 Views
Seems like that's an argument for both views, in a way. Joel - 13/01/2011 11:14:11 PM 955 Views
You can use anything to prove what you want if you are willing to spin it hard enough random thoughts - 14/01/2011 02:57:29 PM 1185 Views
I used YOUR article to "prove" what it says outright. Joel - 15/01/2011 05:35:27 PM 1145 Views
I would also like to say this: Rebekah - 11/01/2011 09:33:23 PM 1019 Views
Of course Tom - 12/01/2011 01:47:14 AM 1054 Views
Re: Of course Rebekah - 12/01/2011 04:57:11 PM 1044 Views
"Night" is also almost invariably feminine, in my experience. Legolas - 12/01/2011 07:58:12 PM 1069 Views
Re: "Night" is also almost invariably feminine, in my experience. Camilla - 12/01/2011 08:15:59 PM 1045 Views
It's true for Arabic and hence, one suspects, Hebrew. Legolas - 13/01/2011 07:43:21 PM 974 Views
I'm glad YOU think it's fun... Joel - 13/01/2011 10:05:07 PM 1018 Views
I seem to remember reading about genders in Norwegian once, but I forget now... Legolas - 13/01/2011 10:11:24 PM 1061 Views
I think you may be right, but I'll no more after next week. Joel - 14/01/2011 12:20:54 AM 1146 Views
Re: I would also like to say this: Camilla - 12/01/2011 09:15:28 AM 1029 Views
Re: I would also like to say this: Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:27:14 PM 1050 Views
No Camilla - 12/01/2011 12:28:48 PM 960 Views
Re: No Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:35:56 PM 925 Views
Re: No Camilla - 12/01/2011 12:37:33 PM 1027 Views
Re: No Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:43:36 PM 1020 Views
Re: No Camilla - 12/01/2011 12:47:56 PM 1049 Views
Since this has become too complicated Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:54:54 PM 1057 Views
Re: Since this has become too complicated Camilla - 12/01/2011 12:56:20 PM 1051 Views
Re: Since this has become too complicated Rebekah - 12/01/2011 04:55:50 PM 994 Views
The two are used as different psychological concepts. Darth_Katie - 12/01/2011 02:24:58 PM 1012 Views
Again, used incorrectly. Tom - 12/01/2011 03:34:22 PM 992 Views
Re: Again, used incorrectly. Camilla - 12/01/2011 04:00:59 PM 1064 Views
Exactly. *NM* Rebekah - 12/01/2011 04:53:03 PM 582 Views
It really doesn't surprise me Beqi - 12/01/2011 12:36:19 AM 1026 Views
Have you left a memo at the Feminist Movement's Office? Dannymac - 12/01/2011 12:46:45 AM 1054 Views
what the point? Like good liberals they only believe science that agrees with them *NM* random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:31:09 AM 508 Views
Actually, the feminist movement was completely successful. Tom - 12/01/2011 01:42:44 AM 1061 Views
Well put. *NM* everynametaken - 12/01/2011 02:10:56 AM 572 Views
I was playing a bit but I agree that the feminist in the past accomplished a lot random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:34:04 AM 1069 Views
NOW is just a left-leaning PAC. Tom - 12/01/2011 03:16:52 PM 1018 Views
I would argue the women's movement and the feminist movement are not the same thing random thoughts - 12/01/2011 03:53:19 PM 981 Views
Now if only others were so rational about it. SilverWarder - 17/01/2011 05:55:57 AM 2036 Views
Nevermind, Tom beat me to it. Avendesora - 12/01/2011 01:54:07 AM 992 Views
Mmm. I don't think you understand the feminist movement. You have been reading to many things Tashmere - 12/01/2011 01:56:20 AM 1057 Views
I was refering to groups like NOW random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:40:46 AM 993 Views
Gotcha. Tashmere - 12/01/2011 11:53:29 PM 996 Views
I was being a tad bit trollish with my title random thoughts - 13/01/2011 01:47:30 AM 955 Views
I'm not sure that follows, at all. Joel - 12/01/2011 02:06:41 AM 961 Views
they never mention their study methods Ava - 12/01/2011 02:14:15 PM 1053 Views
Gosh, look what you started. nossy - 12/01/2011 03:00:23 PM 1047 Views
somebody need to start something it is pretty dead around here *NM* random thoughts - 12/01/2011 03:16:54 PM 595 Views
Seriously *NM* beetnemesis - 12/01/2011 09:56:56 PM 564 Views
I agree that it would be awesome to hang with my kid every day and not have to work. TaskmasterJack - 12/01/2011 11:33:25 PM 1052 Views
that part would be great random thoughts - 12/01/2011 11:40:49 PM 1012 Views
I could do it every day. TaskmasterJack - 13/01/2011 12:52:56 AM 936 Views
Me too... Jacob - 13/01/2011 02:45:49 PM 1065 Views
So here's the question. Why don't men have a "choice" to opt-out? Aeryn - 15/01/2011 06:13:28 AM 1044 Views
They do. Rebekah - 15/01/2011 09:42:29 AM 991 Views
read further up the thread random thoughts - 15/01/2011 10:49:08 AM 1067 Views
I really wish that were more socially acceptable. Clover - 15/01/2011 07:58:57 PM 1078 Views
I feel I have that choice. TaskmasterJack - 16/01/2011 12:08:48 AM 1004 Views
They most certainly do. Jacob - 18/01/2011 04:39:09 PM 1111 Views
This sounds awful to me. rebelaessedai - 13/01/2011 04:27:08 AM 1022 Views
Re: This sounds awful to me. TaskmasterJack - 14/01/2011 02:47:36 AM 1041 Views
Yikes. rebelaessedai - 14/01/2011 11:13:39 PM 1020 Views
I should have twigged on to that sooner. I would have if I had read more posts before answering. Tashmere - 13/01/2011 02:50:20 AM 1037 Views
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