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random thoughts is right. Joel Send a noteboard - 14/01/2011 02:42:38 AM
And those familiar with our past and current debates will know how rarely I say that. :P That we agree here argues for more caution than you're displaying.
I am for the prisoners at the bar, and shall apologize for it only in the words of the Marquis Beccaria: ‘If I can but be the instrument of preserving one life, his blessings and tears of transport, shall be a sufficient consolation to me, for the contempt of all mankind....

We find in the rules laid down by the greatest English judges, who have been the brightest of mankind, [that] we are to look upon it as more beneficial that many guilty persons should escape unpunished than one innocent person should suffer. The reason is because it is of more importance to [the] community that innocence should be protected than it is that guilt should be punished, for guilt and crimes are so frequent in the world that all of them cannot be punished, and many times they happen in such a manner that it is not of much consequence to the public whether they are punished or not. But when innocence itself is brought to the bar and condemned, especially to die, the subject will exclaim, "It is immaterial to me whether I behave well or ill, for virtue itself is no security. " And if such a sentiment as this should take place in the mind of the subject there would be an end to all security whatsoever.
--John Adams, in defense of British soldiers accused of murders at the Boston Massacre.

That AZ has capital punishment drives it home, as it did following the Boston Massacre. Adams won the acquittal of all but two of his clients (who escaped death via the archaic and since abolished "clergy benefit" ) in a trial that is said to have recorded the first instance of the phrase "reasonable doubt".

Law is not a game, though some treat it as such; criminal law is very serious and that involving death, as either charge or sentence, quite literally as somber as the grave. The Bill of Rights entitles all accused to the best possible defence; so does common sense and self preservation, because the simple fact is that mistakes happen: Any of us could find ourselves falsely accused and wrongfully imprisoned tomorrow. Should such a state befall you, you will be very grateful for just the kind of defence attorney you so disparage here (for the record I have no more respect than you for lawyers who accept large retainers to await inevitable frequent charges against clients they know to be guilty, but it happens far more often in the corporate than the mafia world; whose "trial lawyers" do you condemn then...? ;))

Without a sincere and robust defence, even of the guilty, especially for capital crimes, the entire justice system is a facade. Not only must the innocent face the real risk of wrongful conviction, but, as Adams notes, the guilty have no deterrent, for they are as likely to be convicted for legal as illegal conduct. Most people like to treat that as mere rhetoric, yet it's increasingly treated as a truism in inner city areas: Law enforcement, lawyers, judges and juries assume everyone there is a criminal, and they will inevitably be arrested and convicted as one even if innocent. Why not strike out against a system oppressing them, commit the very acts of which they are "presumed guilty" and benefit from that as best they can for as long as they can until the arrest and conviction that was inevitable from birth finds them? The end result is the same whether or not they obey the law, but the interim gains are quite different. There, in a real palpable form, is your end to security. It applies to the Kandahar goatherder who finds himself in Gitmo for reasons never explained and the Bellaire, TX youth paralyzed by a police bullet in his own drive while his parents watch simply for being a suspicious color and quite possibly to you if you successfully argue for presumption of guilt. There's a reason why we enshrined presumption of INNOCENCE in the Constitution; if you don't like it you're welcome to try passing an amendment reversing it, but I, and I think the majority of Americans, will oppose you.
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This message last edited by Joel on 14/01/2011 at 02:43:05 AM
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What motivates someone to pull out all the stops defending the Arizona shooter in court? - 13/01/2011 06:46:14 PM 1589 Views
Because even the guilty are entitled to a full and proper defence. - 13/01/2011 06:58:51 PM 1024 Views
A belief in everyone's right to a defense? *NM* - 13/01/2011 07:02:24 PM 533 Views
Isn't it a little strange... - 13/01/2011 07:08:49 PM 1120 Views
I don't know anything about the woman or the people she has defended before - 13/01/2011 07:10:56 PM 977 Views
Timothy Mcveigh, Eric Rudolph, Theodore Kazynski, Zacharias Moussai, Susan Smith... - 13/01/2011 07:16:07 PM 1147 Views
All of these strike me as people who might not get a fair hearing. - 13/01/2011 07:18:24 PM 1060 Views
Re: All of these strike me as people who might not get a fair hearing. - 13/01/2011 07:23:15 PM 940 Views
So once you sit down and have a heart to heart with your client an discover that he is simply evil.. - 13/01/2011 07:30:53 PM 1161 Views
My god, man, take an ethics class. - 13/01/2011 07:37:16 PM 981 Views
So by your ethics... - 13/01/2011 07:40:36 PM 1143 Views
If he can't be defended he can't be tried and thus he can't be convicted. - 13/01/2011 07:44:57 PM 1163 Views
I suspect he disparages "technicalities" as well. *NM* - 13/01/2011 07:48:14 PM 487 Views
some techincalites deserve it - 13/01/2011 08:01:26 PM 999 Views
True. *NM* - 13/01/2011 08:54:25 PM 486 Views
How is justice served if the accused has no defense? *NM* - 13/01/2011 07:47:01 PM 496 Views
Who said she sought out anyone? - 14/01/2011 01:29:38 AM 1015 Views
Maybe he IS insane - 13/01/2011 07:17:46 PM 1044 Views
So what if he is? - 14/01/2011 01:11:44 AM 933 Views
No, it doesn't change what he did. - 14/01/2011 06:22:06 PM 998 Views
Plus - 14/01/2011 08:05:36 PM 1071 Views
Capital punishment is more expensive than life in prison. - 13/01/2011 07:34:29 PM 1120 Views
So in other words out of self interest I should admire her? Now THAT's evil... - 13/01/2011 07:38:36 PM 1186 Views
- 13/01/2011 07:40:42 PM 953 Views
Re: - 13/01/2011 07:49:56 PM 1082 Views
That's a critique of Lawyers, not a critique of Rule of Law. - 13/01/2011 08:37:20 PM 1093 Views
Do you believe the severity of the crime should affect your defense? - 13/01/2011 07:45:16 PM 1004 Views
No. - 13/01/2011 08:44:05 PM 1231 Views
How do you decide if it was "in cold blood" or not? - 13/01/2011 08:49:06 PM 1035 Views
Have you any way to back up this statement? - 13/01/2011 08:49:41 PM 1007 Views
The difference... - 13/01/2011 08:57:45 PM 1101 Views
How would you know he was the guy that stole the horse? *NM* - 14/01/2011 11:32:15 PM 525 Views
re: - 13/01/2011 09:09:05 PM 980 Views
Take a look at the part of the world who still use the villiage elder system - 13/01/2011 09:36:18 PM 911 Views
random thoughts is right. - 14/01/2011 02:42:38 AM 1249 Views
the belief that for the system to work everyone needs vigorous defense - 13/01/2011 07:37:40 PM 986 Views
You managed to cover all three of my answers; +1. - 14/01/2011 12:29:21 AM 1028 Views
Yes, exactly. And in fewer words than I'd have used. *NM* - 15/01/2011 02:10:03 PM 660 Views
Probably a bunch of reasons - 13/01/2011 07:39:58 PM 996 Views
A belief in justice - 13/01/2011 08:24:25 PM 1122 Views
Personally, I don't see why being insane should excuse anything... - 13/01/2011 08:29:25 PM 1136 Views
It's a good thing you don't get to write the laws then - 13/01/2011 08:45:39 PM 1052 Views
Being insane doesn't excuse anything. - 13/01/2011 08:45:40 PM 1162 Views
Fame and money - 13/01/2011 09:15:38 PM 933 Views
Many possible reasons. - 13/01/2011 10:41:30 PM 1090 Views
Well said. *NM* - 13/01/2011 11:30:54 PM 562 Views
Oh, and I forgot one very important thing. - 13/01/2011 11:33:33 PM 929 Views
He should have been shot in the street like a dog. - 14/01/2011 01:09:38 AM 935 Views
Vengeance is not justice. *NM* - 14/01/2011 01:13:04 AM 492 Views
If the person is guilty, it's one in the same. - 14/01/2011 01:17:54 AM 898 Views
No, it's not: their definitions and concepts are entirely different. - 14/01/2011 02:27:13 PM 1022 Views
Can`t consume blood, actually. - 14/01/2011 04:10:57 PM 990 Views
well im so glad you find this situation to be so simple - 16/01/2011 03:45:52 AM 962 Views
Now that was a better post. Now we can talk. - 16/01/2011 04:54:11 AM 1111 Views
That would not be a deterrent to people who are mentally ill. *NM* - 14/01/2011 01:25:56 AM 530 Views
By that logic nothing would. - 14/01/2011 01:29:41 AM 893 Views
And by that logic, we should kill people with HIV. - 14/01/2011 06:20:03 AM 979 Views
Not at all. We should kill people with HIV if they're spreading it knowingly. - 14/01/2011 01:31:48 PM 1176 Views
then we should kill people who spread the flu as well - 14/01/2011 04:53:51 PM 1024 Views
That's absurd. - 14/01/2011 08:21:36 PM 916 Views
it is absurd and that is my point - 14/01/2011 08:54:07 PM 1045 Views
That's not the issue. - 14/01/2011 09:40:00 PM 978 Views
why are the different? - 14/01/2011 10:02:06 PM 969 Views
HIV is incurable. - 15/01/2011 07:09:47 AM 901 Views
People have been convicted for knowingly spreading diseases - 15/01/2011 01:05:22 PM 898 Views
you are correct that is why we need to fix our mental health system *NM* - 14/01/2011 02:22:22 PM 521 Views
Not everyone else is doing that. So who else are you trying to deter? - 14/01/2011 05:25:28 PM 1078 Views
Everyone. - 14/01/2011 08:23:41 PM 1191 Views
gang members get killed every day by other gang members so I would say it isn't working *NM* - 14/01/2011 08:31:29 PM 547 Views
If we were executing them publicly in the streets, maybe it would be. *NM* - 14/01/2011 08:33:30 PM 513 Views
why would you believe that? - 14/01/2011 08:58:25 PM 981 Views
It's never been tried. - 14/01/2011 09:40:54 PM 969 Views
So it's agreed, murderers should be given icecream. *NM* - 14/01/2011 09:43:36 PM 497 Views
did you actually read my reply where I explained that it has been tried? - 14/01/2011 09:52:43 PM 1055 Views
Because it's not being done by the state. - 15/01/2011 07:08:51 AM 948 Views
Yes, let's bring back the justice of the lynch mob. *NM* - 14/01/2011 01:44:00 AM 465 Views
It is justice if the person is guilty. - 14/01/2011 01:32:44 PM 872 Views
So how would you determine if the person is guilty and deserved death? Perhaps... with a lawyer? *NM* - 15/01/2011 06:05:13 AM 539 Views
No, a 5 minute trial wherein the judge watches the video of this guy killing everyone... - 15/01/2011 07:05:30 AM 1046 Views
What if he was a hired killer? - 15/01/2011 06:19:12 PM 905 Views
They're pretty certain he worked alone. - 15/01/2011 08:00:42 PM 954 Views
Also, did you see My Cousin Vinny? - 15/01/2011 06:23:51 PM 989 Views
In this case, I'll risk it. *NM* - 15/01/2011 08:02:10 PM 490 Views
non occides, indeed. *NM* - 14/01/2011 02:37:29 AM 479 Views
Because he has absolutely no right to the laws dictated in the U.S. Constitution. - 14/01/2011 03:20:58 AM 1120 Views
The Constitution shouldn't protect these people. - 14/01/2011 01:34:19 PM 911 Views
14th amendment -- equal protection clause. thanks for playing! - 14/01/2011 04:22:17 PM 1000 Views
I'm not an American. - 14/01/2011 08:27:52 PM 1089 Views
And believe me, that shows in more than where you were born. *NM* - 14/01/2011 11:28:28 PM 493 Views
If that's supposed to be an insult... - 15/01/2011 07:03:10 AM 960 Views
How do you determine if someone gets Constitutional protection or not? - 14/01/2011 08:10:45 PM 970 Views
If someone is guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt... - 14/01/2011 08:26:36 PM 968 Views
He has a reasonable defense. - 14/01/2011 11:21:47 PM 1089 Views
I disagree. - 15/01/2011 07:04:38 AM 1102 Views
That's preposterous. - 15/01/2011 10:42:04 PM 949 Views
He's not retarded, he's insane. - 16/01/2011 12:28:45 AM 941 Views
Both are maladies that affect the mind and reasoning processes. - 16/01/2011 02:05:53 AM 987 Views
Then insane still have to pay for what they've done. - 16/01/2011 02:53:47 AM 941 Views
There's a little flaw in your connection. - 16/01/2011 03:14:36 AM 941 Views
Again, I disagree. - 16/01/2011 04:47:08 AM 1507 Views
Just because that's your opinion, doesn't mean that's applicable. - 17/01/2011 03:07:47 AM 1036 Views
Uh...I never argued that it should. - 17/01/2011 03:33:43 AM 1221 Views
I wonder what the reaction would be if Michael Vick said that. - 14/01/2011 06:18:00 AM 910 Views
That's absurd. - 14/01/2011 01:35:16 PM 802 Views
yes because threat of death works so well on the insane - 14/01/2011 02:21:42 PM 981 Views
I`ve addressed this already. - 14/01/2011 04:08:28 PM 903 Views
no you admitted it wouldn't deter them - 14/01/2011 05:03:24 PM 976 Views
Re: no you admitted it wouldn't deter them - 14/01/2011 06:55:22 PM 1143 Views
no - 14/01/2011 07:15:11 PM 997 Views
Re: no - 14/01/2011 07:35:07 PM 1003 Views
We recently put a man to death in Texas who was very likely innocent - 14/01/2011 09:24:04 PM 849 Views
Just as an aside... I suppose you have no problem with Muslims cutting off the hand of a thief? - 14/01/2011 05:30:50 PM 1019 Views
I invite you to show me where I've criticized the Islamic legal system. - 14/01/2011 08:36:22 PM 1023 Views
OK. - 15/01/2011 04:40:56 PM 1023 Views
I really don't care what Muslims do to each other. - 15/01/2011 05:28:52 PM 924 Views
Actually castrating or chemically castrating? - 15/01/2011 05:33:07 PM 1114 Views
I don't care either way really. - 15/01/2011 08:03:01 PM 883 Views
i believe in the laws and ideals this country is based on - 16/01/2011 03:41:13 AM 1085 Views
And you felt the need to say that why? - 16/01/2011 04:44:40 AM 971 Views
I find it hilarious that a clearly guilty man will be defended. Defended against what? - 14/01/2011 03:22:20 AM 1039 Views
I'll tell you a couple of other things that could happen. - 14/01/2011 08:26:52 AM 938 Views
There are still trials when someone pleads guilty *NM* - 14/01/2011 06:47:56 PM 510 Views
The Thing is... - 14/01/2011 04:57:04 AM 987 Views
What motivates someone to be the Arizona shooter? - 14/01/2011 09:51:10 AM 976 Views
I found something of interest... - 14/01/2011 06:16:40 PM 883 Views

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