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Both, really; the latter is a consequence of the former. Joel Send a noteboard - 12/01/2011 05:21:28 PM
as for the men a re sprinters and women are long distance runners men dominate women by very large margins in both fields. The best female runner at marathons come muck closer then they do to the best male sprinters (would pure strength dominates) but men still win all of the major marathons. Men are simply more athletic then women are. I know there plenty of experts who spend considerable time effort blowing smoke up each others asses trying to prove that isn't true but that doesn't really change things. It possible that if the push long distance running far enough it boil down to will power and fat reserves and females might gain parity but that is simply finding an exception to the rule.

Not PC I know but reality isn't PC.

PC is neither here nor there to physiology, but this business of "everyone who's devoted thier professional career and decades of analytical research to the subject but still disagrees with my off the cuff uninformed opinion is a PC idiot" is getting kinda old. All else being equal, I'll bet on the person who has to go through labor when it comes to lower body strength, just as I'll expect the person who has to nurse to have larger breasts, and I'm pretty sure there's nothing PC about that. ;)

I still can't see any reason men should be better at math, on average; I'm open to supporting arguments (and, no, standardized tests by the same people who've been telling the women since birth that they suck at math don't count) but you'll have to present them.


Do you mean from an evolutionary standpoint? Or do you mean you don't understand how any of the known biological/chemical differences in the brains of men and women (assuming nature can be totally separated from nurture) can explain why men would on average be better at math than women?

It makes intuitive sense to me that the presence/degree of different hormone balances impacts how pathways form and what types of thinking those pathways enable or strengthen, and I do believe that the statement "men will on average be better at math than women" would be true even if you could somehow conduct a scientific experiment in which you raised boys and girls from birth in entirely the same environment to remove any nurture component. I also think that our cultural forces exacerbate those differences, though, so I don't think I'm entirely disagreeing with you. Other than the fact that I am willing to buy it and you aren't ;)

I'm not unwilling to buy it, I'm just not willing to take it on faith from someone contending from the start that sexual inequality exists in areas that seemingly have nothing to do with sex.
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Looks like the feminist movement wasn't as successful as it appears random thoughts - 11/01/2011 06:21:01 PM 2124 Views
I think you're extrapolating a bit too much beetnemesis - 11/01/2011 06:45:38 PM 1194 Views
The aricle does mention that women feel pressured to work when they did not want to random thoughts - 11/01/2011 06:48:47 PM 1188 Views
I don't trust the figures. Rebekah - 11/01/2011 06:50:24 PM 1213 Views
One assumes the latter, to the extent that "same job with same experience" can be defined. *NM* Legolas - 12/01/2011 07:10:13 PM 612 Views
One might assume that, but it's not necessarily so. Rebekah - 12/01/2011 08:58:14 PM 1162 Views
While I don't 100% agree with the article, some feminists annoy me no end. Rebekah - 11/01/2011 06:47:03 PM 1216 Views
My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career random thoughts - 11/01/2011 06:52:11 PM 1216 Views
Re: My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career Rebekah - 11/01/2011 09:35:43 PM 1193 Views
Re: My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career Avendesora - 12/01/2011 01:36:14 AM 1209 Views
Yeah, got one like that, too. Joel - 12/01/2011 02:17:17 AM 1207 Views
yeah prett much anything gross that isn't in a diaper is my job random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:12:11 AM 1140 Views
It's not just that choice though. Sareitha Sedai - 11/01/2011 07:12:48 PM 1261 Views
It feels more hypocritical coming from feminists than "traditionalists". *NM* Rebekah - 11/01/2011 07:17:24 PM 646 Views
For you maybe. Sareitha Sedai - 11/01/2011 07:27:52 PM 1199 Views
there is definitely some SAHM snobbery random thoughts - 11/01/2011 08:43:21 PM 1155 Views
Well. Rebekah - 11/01/2011 09:34:42 PM 1238 Views
I agree. I would also like to add, if I may... Avendesora - 12/01/2011 01:27:59 AM 1194 Views
all 25 of them? random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:14:56 AM 1142 Views
Pffft, look it up a bit. You might find info on the national propaganda radio (NPR) site. Avendesora - 12/01/2011 12:47:33 PM 1182 Views
It's a difficult dynamic even under the best of circumstances, when both partners have chosen it. Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 02:25:20 PM 1055 Views
I agree, it's very difficult. Avendesora - 12/01/2011 03:14:59 PM 1092 Views
it is nuanced random thoughts - 12/01/2011 03:06:39 PM 1130 Views
Re: it is nuanced Avendesora - 12/01/2011 04:58:36 PM 1145 Views
You are spot on. As usual. About everything. *NM* Tashmere - 12/01/2011 01:42:18 AM 684 Views
Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 02:25:59 PM 1113 Views
I have to admit that this bothers me. rebelaessedai - 11/01/2011 07:33:09 PM 1215 Views
I don't expect people to understand my choice necessarily. Rebekah - 11/01/2011 09:36:52 PM 1222 Views
In addition... Jacob - 12/01/2011 05:39:25 PM 1107 Views
I guess you think the same of me then. Clover - 11/01/2011 09:48:31 PM 1096 Views
Another one? rebelaessedai - 12/01/2011 06:01:43 AM 1116 Views
Re: Another one? Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:33:58 PM 1158 Views
~never mind~ *NM* *NM* Aeryn - 12/01/2011 04:42:47 PM 742 Views
I'm going to answer you anyway. Rebekah - 12/01/2011 04:54:18 PM 1217 Views
not to mention nossy - 12/01/2011 05:11:42 PM 1149 Views
In addition Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 05:23:25 PM 1094 Views
you don't want kids? random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:46:25 PM 1077 Views
bleck nossy - 12/01/2011 11:14:25 PM 1111 Views
again not the vibe I get from you random thoughts - 12/01/2011 11:38:26 PM 1093 Views
Hehe. Clover - 13/01/2011 12:15:06 AM 1143 Views
Not selfish. Tashmere - 13/01/2011 02:45:43 AM 1107 Views
You don't have to be a doctor to contribute to the world random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:27:26 PM 1172 Views
Poor Aeryn Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 05:29:47 PM 1093 Views
I replied before she edited random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:41:53 PM 1040 Views
Am I at least absolved from having to respond? Aeryn - 15/01/2011 06:11:27 AM 1140 Views
Certainly. *NM* Rebekah - 15/01/2011 09:40:09 AM 684 Views
The primary issue... Jacob - 12/01/2011 05:52:42 PM 1074 Views
*NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 05:54:29 PM 611 Views
Agreed; ironically, that first line applies to this thread and mine with the parenting article. Joel - 13/01/2011 10:00:28 PM 1235 Views
What Rebekah said... Clover - 15/01/2011 07:55:34 PM 1080 Views
Me too! Clover - 11/01/2011 09:43:57 PM 1169 Views
Re: Me too! Darth_Katie - 12/01/2011 01:23:39 AM 1159 Views
It has been a long, long time since I have seen a woman getting looked down on for staying at home. Tashmere - 12/01/2011 01:48:42 AM 1041 Views
I have a fiancee like that. Joel - 12/01/2011 02:14:53 AM 1075 Views
I feel so fortunate to be a stay at home mom. Beqi - 12/01/2011 11:32:37 PM 1071 Views
My commentary on the whys and wherefores of this stuff would be way too politically incorrect SilverWarder - 11/01/2011 07:56:24 PM 1218 Views
I think all of that makes sense random thoughts - 11/01/2011 08:36:39 PM 1144 Views
In this particular case I don't disagree with you. SilverWarder - 11/01/2011 09:28:13 PM 1055 Views
I'm not sure why either sex should surpass the other in math. Joel - 12/01/2011 02:34:09 AM 1059 Views
men have more physical strength period random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:30:14 AM 1068 Views
There's a lot more to running (especially marathons) then leg strength. Joel - 12/01/2011 05:41:11 AM 1055 Views
how much time the experts spend being wrong doesn't make them less wrong random thoughts - 12/01/2011 03:16:10 PM 1061 Views
How much more time they've spent studying it before drawing conclusions makes a big difference. Joel - 12/01/2011 05:42:26 PM 1067 Views
your right it is just a coincidence that their results always matches their politics random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:56:03 PM 1107 Views
There's definitely such a thing as a self fulfilling prophecy. Joel - 12/01/2011 07:00:23 PM 1082 Views
so you would trust them if they only admitted conseratives? random thoughts - 12/01/2011 09:51:00 PM 1100 Views
Admitted? No, but they'll take anyone with the grades. Joel - 13/01/2011 09:47:42 PM 1088 Views
Every study I have seen shows most schools have few to no non-leberal proffesors random thoughts - 13/01/2011 10:07:08 PM 1030 Views
Every study I've ever seen shows that math and science fields have few to no women. Joel - 13/01/2011 10:42:46 PM 1139 Views
not when we know men are better at math thewpmen are random thoughts - 13/01/2011 11:10:18 PM 1171 Views
Sigh... we know no such thing, and even if we did, it would be those biased liberals telling us. Joel - 13/01/2011 11:30:33 PM 987 Views
When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 03:47:53 PM 1116 Views
Re: When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math Macharius - 12/01/2011 04:32:38 PM 1023 Views
Re: When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 04:41:42 PM 1103 Views
Both, really; the latter is a consequence of the former. Joel - 12/01/2011 05:21:28 PM 1002 Views
I'm trying to understand your position Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 05:28:43 PM 1069 Views
try string theory, it makes more sense than Joel logic random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:57:27 PM 1018 Views
Now you've got it. Joel - 12/01/2011 06:40:50 PM 1164 Views
Okay, that's fair. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 06:42:30 PM 595 Views
Glad we were able to reach an understanding. Joel - 13/01/2011 10:02:47 PM 1052 Views
Re: I'm trying to understand your position Camilla - 13/01/2011 08:12:05 PM 1094 Views
we know the brain of women works differently then the brains of men random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:40:15 PM 1101 Views
What evidence I'm aware of seems inconclusive. Joel - 12/01/2011 06:46:50 PM 982 Views
There are theories but of course they are unprovable random thoughts - 12/01/2011 10:50:08 PM 1077 Views
That's a logical rationale, and might even be accurate, but in this case I want hard evidence. Joel - 13/01/2011 09:03:32 PM 989 Views
I think if you look you find you believe all sorts of things that can't be proven random thoughts - 13/01/2011 10:03:54 PM 1059 Views
I have, and have frequently argued everyone holds such beliefs. Joel - 13/01/2011 10:33:01 PM 952 Views
here is some evdience to argue that it is not society but biology random thoughts - 13/01/2011 08:43:43 PM 1122 Views
I think you did like I always do and forgot to give us a way to click your link. Joel - 13/01/2011 09:56:52 PM 1110 Views
oops random thoughts - 13/01/2011 10:07:55 PM 1141 Views
Seems like that's an argument for both views, in a way. Joel - 13/01/2011 11:14:11 PM 1014 Views
You can use anything to prove what you want if you are willing to spin it hard enough random thoughts - 14/01/2011 02:57:29 PM 1260 Views
I used YOUR article to "prove" what it says outright. Joel - 15/01/2011 05:35:27 PM 1217 Views
I would also like to say this: Rebekah - 11/01/2011 09:33:23 PM 1084 Views
Of course Tom - 12/01/2011 01:47:14 AM 1121 Views
Re: Of course Rebekah - 12/01/2011 04:57:11 PM 1110 Views
"Night" is also almost invariably feminine, in my experience. Legolas - 12/01/2011 07:58:12 PM 1132 Views
Re: "Night" is also almost invariably feminine, in my experience. Camilla - 12/01/2011 08:15:59 PM 1106 Views
It's true for Arabic and hence, one suspects, Hebrew. Legolas - 13/01/2011 07:43:21 PM 1040 Views
I'm glad YOU think it's fun... Joel - 13/01/2011 10:05:07 PM 1084 Views
I seem to remember reading about genders in Norwegian once, but I forget now... Legolas - 13/01/2011 10:11:24 PM 1125 Views
I think you may be right, but I'll no more after next week. Joel - 14/01/2011 12:20:54 AM 1220 Views
Re: I would also like to say this: Camilla - 12/01/2011 09:15:28 AM 1101 Views
Re: I would also like to say this: Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:27:14 PM 1113 Views
No Camilla - 12/01/2011 12:28:48 PM 1023 Views
Re: No Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:35:56 PM 989 Views
Re: No Camilla - 12/01/2011 12:37:33 PM 1097 Views
Re: No Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:43:36 PM 1084 Views
Re: No Camilla - 12/01/2011 12:47:56 PM 1124 Views
Since this has become too complicated Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:54:54 PM 1131 Views
Re: Since this has become too complicated Camilla - 12/01/2011 12:56:20 PM 1120 Views
Re: Since this has become too complicated Rebekah - 12/01/2011 04:55:50 PM 1029 Views
The two are used as different psychological concepts. Darth_Katie - 12/01/2011 02:24:58 PM 1074 Views
Again, used incorrectly. Tom - 12/01/2011 03:34:22 PM 1056 Views
Re: Again, used incorrectly. Camilla - 12/01/2011 04:00:59 PM 1126 Views
Exactly. *NM* Rebekah - 12/01/2011 04:53:03 PM 606 Views
It really doesn't surprise me Beqi - 12/01/2011 12:36:19 AM 1095 Views
Have you left a memo at the Feminist Movement's Office? Dannymac - 12/01/2011 12:46:45 AM 1124 Views
what the point? Like good liberals they only believe science that agrees with them *NM* random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:31:09 AM 535 Views
Actually, the feminist movement was completely successful. Tom - 12/01/2011 01:42:44 AM 1138 Views
Well put. *NM* everynametaken - 12/01/2011 02:10:56 AM 598 Views
I was playing a bit but I agree that the feminist in the past accomplished a lot random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:34:04 AM 1129 Views
NOW is just a left-leaning PAC. Tom - 12/01/2011 03:16:52 PM 1081 Views
I would argue the women's movement and the feminist movement are not the same thing random thoughts - 12/01/2011 03:53:19 PM 1057 Views
Now if only others were so rational about it. SilverWarder - 17/01/2011 05:55:57 AM 2106 Views
Nevermind, Tom beat me to it. Avendesora - 12/01/2011 01:54:07 AM 1064 Views
Mmm. I don't think you understand the feminist movement. You have been reading to many things Tashmere - 12/01/2011 01:56:20 AM 1121 Views
I was refering to groups like NOW random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:40:46 AM 1055 Views
Gotcha. Tashmere - 12/01/2011 11:53:29 PM 1056 Views
I was being a tad bit trollish with my title random thoughts - 13/01/2011 01:47:30 AM 1022 Views
I'm not sure that follows, at all. Joel - 12/01/2011 02:06:41 AM 1029 Views
they never mention their study methods Ava - 12/01/2011 02:14:15 PM 1109 Views
Gosh, look what you started. nossy - 12/01/2011 03:00:23 PM 1111 Views
somebody need to start something it is pretty dead around here *NM* random thoughts - 12/01/2011 03:16:54 PM 622 Views
Seriously *NM* beetnemesis - 12/01/2011 09:56:56 PM 594 Views
I agree that it would be awesome to hang with my kid every day and not have to work. TaskmasterJack - 12/01/2011 11:33:25 PM 1110 Views
that part would be great random thoughts - 12/01/2011 11:40:49 PM 1085 Views
I could do it every day. TaskmasterJack - 13/01/2011 12:52:56 AM 1004 Views
Me too... Jacob - 13/01/2011 02:45:49 PM 1135 Views
So here's the question. Why don't men have a "choice" to opt-out? Aeryn - 15/01/2011 06:13:28 AM 1115 Views
They do. Rebekah - 15/01/2011 09:42:29 AM 1061 Views
read further up the thread random thoughts - 15/01/2011 10:49:08 AM 1135 Views
I really wish that were more socially acceptable. Clover - 15/01/2011 07:58:57 PM 1150 Views
I feel I have that choice. TaskmasterJack - 16/01/2011 12:08:48 AM 1073 Views
They most certainly do. Jacob - 18/01/2011 04:39:09 PM 1175 Views
This sounds awful to me. rebelaessedai - 13/01/2011 04:27:08 AM 1097 Views
Re: This sounds awful to me. TaskmasterJack - 14/01/2011 02:47:36 AM 1108 Views
Yikes. rebelaessedai - 14/01/2011 11:13:39 PM 1088 Views
I should have twigged on to that sooner. I would have if I had read more posts before answering. Tashmere - 13/01/2011 02:50:20 AM 1095 Views
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