Active Users:1191 Time:22/11/2024 08:24:29 PM
Of course not, it's a legitimate rhetorical device if not used (or taken) literally. - Edit 1

Before modification by Joel at 25/11/2010 12:44:50 PM

I might be able to excuse the absent representatives, who could (though I doubt it) be unaware that the amendment had been proposed, or that the vote would be that day. It's quite possible that those who desired it played a scheduling game to make sure the vote came up when the most favorable quorum was present. Looking at the list it might not have made a difference, but to abstain while present for a vote like this is cowardly.

I agree about the absent countries, looking at that list I get the strong impression that the "absent" nations were actually just abstaining in a subtler way. Turkey, Albania and a number of Oceanian countries in particular - those are countries that would be expected to follow the lead of the EU in the former two cases and the US in the latter, but don't want to take a position that could be seen as pro-homosexuality, and so they made sure they weren't there, so that the offense to Europe/the US would be smaller than if they had actually abstained.

The countries that did abstain are in similar positions, but evidently less afraid to annoy their allies. Seems to me that the large majority of both the abstainers and the absent countries would've voted with the majority if they had been forced to vote, so perhaps it's for the best they abstained instead and made it look as if it was close.

Not much to say to that, except that perhaps countries that side with repression and murder (which is all "extra-judicial killing" is) rather than freedom aren't ready to join international communities that embrace the latter and repudiate the former. This vote doesn't mean that democracy doesn't work, it's simply a reminder that the bulk of the world isn't really that democratic. I don't hold with Dulles Democracy at all (in fact, I think it was a horrible and malignant error in judgement with enduring damage to both the nations controlled and the nation controlling them). However, it seems very reasonable, logical, to tell nations that disenfranchise or even dehumanize large portions of their own populace that until all their people are represented in their government, their NATION literally cannot have full international representation. Does the Turkish Ambassador to the UN speak for the millions of Turkish Kurds? Does Chinas Ambassador speak for the millions of Tibetans, Christians and Muslims his government oppresses daily? They rarely speak ABOUT them, so I'd have to say they don't represent them much either. That means they don't represent nations or people, they represent ideologies, and ideologies don't merit UN Ambassadors.
I can't help it though, I find the list of major nations voting for and against this ironic given how much crap many of those who voted against it take for opposing those who voted for it. The US is evil for waging that unjust Vietnam war, but guess where each of those nations aligned. It's also evil for supporting Israel despite their brutality, as well as opposing North Korea and Irans nuclear weapons programs, but guess where each of those nations came down on this issue. This is the kind of crap I mean when I say the world may not LIKE American hegemony, but when it's replaced by Chinese hegemony, with global complicity, they're going to miss our sorry butts. Much good may it do them.

I'm sure there are people in North Korea who think the US is evil for opposing North Korea's nuclear weapons programs. Of course, North Koreans don't generally have internet, so I'm unsure where you would've encountered any such people. Seriously though, the future is not some new Cold War between China and the US, there will be more than two sides, and people criticizing the US does not mean they want Chinese hegemony. Chill out already.

Oh, and I hereby absolve you of any obligation you may feel to reply, at least to this paragraph (the bit above about the abstaining might be a productive discussion, but I rather doubt this bit would be ).

Yeah, nice try. There will be multiple sides, true. I don't think Russias current government much better than Chinas though, and the EU is so prepared for uncompromising conflict that genocide on its doorstep must be stopped by the US and NATO, or not at all. These factors actually make the situation more dangerous rather than less, because if China is allowed (as it seems it will be) to absorb all of Southeast Asia it will upset the balance of power and demand a Russian response. I share a border with them now, and try not to think about the implications of direct competition for the European energy market if EU-Russian relations collapse. The fact remains that even if China and Russia don't confront each other directly, large scale Chinese expansion will provoke a response from Russia, probably in Mongolia, Eastern Europe or the clusterf--k that is Afghanistan (where you can still be executed for homosexuality; we've really accomplished a lot there, haven't we? ) Since oil goes for more per barrel than yak milk, my bet would be Afghanistan or Eastern Europe, with perhaps a little Norway on the side. The two things Norway has to deter invasion are snow and distance, and neither will deter Russia.

All that aside, the polite fiction nationalism and warfare are obsolete meets harsh reality in China, where nationalism is in a renaissance and the military mushrooms. They didn't commission their first aircraft carrier for show. Sure, there are other players, but I don't expect military aggression from Brazil or India, and it is military aggression, not economic or political influence, that worries me. China is in the best position to establish hegemony, and, unlike almost all other rising economic powers, is gaining the necessary military might. That would be accompanied by a level of repression few in the West can still imagine, if only because Western individualism has never had much place in China. Saying these things meets the same skepticism that Iranian and North Korean nuclear weapons program received: Chinese manifest destiny, like fanatics who can nuke their neighbors, are preferable to agreeing with less trustworthy America. On this very board it's been suggested that American nuclear weapons legitimize Iran and North Koreas. Things like this are why I see real world symbolism in TLotR.
"If Gondor, Boromir, has been a stalwart tower, we have played another part. Many evil things there are that your strong walls and bright swords do not stay. You know little of lands beyond your bounds. Peace and freedom do you say? The North would have known them little but for us. Fear would have destroyed them. But when dark things come from the houseless hills, or creep from sunless woods, they fly from us. What roads would any dare to tread, what safety would there be in quiet lands, or in the homes of simple men at night, if the Dunedain were asleep, or were all gone into the grave?

And yet less thanks have we than you. Travellers scowl at us, and countrymen give us scornful names. "Strider" I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town to ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly. Yet we would not have it otherwise. If simple folk are free from care and fear, simple they will be, and we must be secret to keep them so. That has been the task of my kindred, while the years have lengthened and the grass has grown.

My sympathies are more with Boromir, whatever that implies. Perhaps gratitude for Americans who've lost life and limb keeping the Free World just that for decades is too much to ask, but the common, PERVASIVE, resentment is as unwelcome here as our protection is overseas. A Watchful Peace built on denial will profit the world no more than it did in the '30s. China is buying time, and we will pay the price.

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