You're saying that the ketchup thing is factually correct and I'm saying that's a very rhetoric heavy interpretation of a minor 'oops' event that took place 30 years ago and is viewed by those who remember it outside the left as an amusing blunder of no ill intent. The GOP certainly never conspired to make ketchup a vegetable to starve kids, and that's how you're using it. You clearly don't want to see, and you're not going to convince me 'death panels' are false, I already consider them strong on the rhetoric but at least they are relevant to the issue. What is false about it? Someone has to decide when treatment is not worth the cost, and if the taxpayers are funding the bill then that means a government panel of some sort, that's as it should be, we can't be cutting million dollar checks for risky treatments with little clinical trial that only buy someone another week of life or something, there has to be a cut off somewhere, someone must make that decision, I don't scoff at death panel because its a false comment but because I consider such a decision panel a necessary evil of using a single-payer option and calling it that strikes me as rhetoric heavy, just as if we called a jury or appeals court for a capital offense a death jury or a death court, the term is mean, not inaccurate. What your basis for saying the ketchup shows republicans conspired to starve kids but that in single-payer nobody form the government would have any say on whether or not we proceeded with a treatment? Because if your claiming that no such decision making group would be involved, then the authors of the bill deserve to be beaten for incompetence, someone has to evaluate whether something is a good treatment or effectively expensive snake oil or not only would there be a lot of waste and thus suffering from a non-infinite supply of funds but epic fraud form those offering snake oil.

Your not being logical, I don't think you're open to objective truth on this one Joel, or you wouldn't be bringing up something that even if matched to your interpretation is 30 years old.