Re: Was he worse? We'll never know, seeing how he was the one that came out on top.
Legolas Send a noteboard - 08/11/2010 10:28:01 PM
Well, for starters, you can't blame the murders of hundreds of millions of people in those countries on "economic failures" no matter how spectacular. Mao's Great Leap Forward was designed to kill tens of millions of people, and Stalin's Holodomor was designed to kill millions of undesirables as well, not to mention Siberia, and the Great Purges ect.
Hundreds of millions now? I think you're exaggerating a good bit there. The Great Leap Forward seems to have estimates around 40 million dead, for the Holodomor I've heard about 5 million, there are others that add up, but hundreds of millions seems like a rather large exaggeration all the same.
And would you care to give me a source for your claims that the Great Leap Forward was intended to kill millions? It certainly did end up doing that, but I'd like to see some evidence if you claim that - or anything like it - was intentional. For the Holodomor, I am indeed aware of the debate about whether it was intentional, though I don't believe there's a consensus on that.
Sending people to Siberia and similar purges in China are of course different, but those are far smaller numbers we're talking about.
So if we're going to talk intentional murder, it's numbers in the millions, possibly low tens of millions if one takes the stance the Hodorlomor was indeed fully intentional. You're exaggerating a lot. But of course, it's still exponentially larger than the amounts killed in Italy or Spain, if one ignores the Holocaust, or even if one includes those victims of the Holocaust that came from Italy or lands under Italian control. So it's hard to disagree with your statements about the Soviet Union and China - it's the assumption you seem to make that something comparable would've happened in Spain that I am really finding fault with. The left-wing in Spain prior to Franco's rebellion that started the civil war certainly wasn't of such a kind that it would have done anything in that direction. No doubt they were radicalized by the war, and would have oppressed their enemies if they'd won the war in a similar way to what the victorious fascists did (they already committed some atrocities during the war in the territories they controlled). But that sort of disastrous megalomaniac economic policies, or such purges on an enormous scale long after the respective revolutions were well and truly won? I see little reason to assume that.
No matter which way you slice it, I'd rather not be able to speak Italian in public than, say, slowly starving to death, being executed for imagined conspiracies, or being shipped to Siberia. The communists, in ever single case, were worst than any fascist regime. Granted, I don't consider Hitler a fascist (for obvious reasons), but even if you tossed Hitler in the mix, the big two (Russia and China) would still be worse than the Nazi's in terms of a body count.
The big two are worse than everybody else in terms of body count, agreed. And so is Cambodia, at least in percentage terms - well, Cambodia is the worst of all, really. But the rest didn't belong in that list, and so I can't agree with the generalization about every communist regime being worse than any fascist regime, either. Vietnam had large amounts of dead civilians too, but then it was war, and South-Vietnam killed large amounts of innocent civilians just like North-Vietnam.
And I tossed Cuba in the mix for the tens of thousands of Cubans who Castro and Che made "disappear" after the revolution was won in 1959.
That really doesn't make them any different from Franco's Spain at least - I'm not sure about the numbers in Mussolini's Italy.
This message last edited by Legolas on 08/11/2010 at 10:31:31 PM
Pope criticises gay marriage and abortion at cathedral consecration in Spain
07/11/2010 08:18:06 PM
- 1239 Views
Can't wait to see what he says about sanctity of life next time he's in TX....
07/11/2010 08:51:41 PM
- 1059 Views
You know, next time you tell people to not reopen certain debates...
07/11/2010 09:28:21 PM
- 958 Views
Does Spain distinguish between secular and sacramental marriage?
08/11/2010 01:10:47 AM
- 822 Views
I would assume so, but can't say for sure.
08/11/2010 10:27:01 AM
- 757 Views
Well, that's the out then.
08/11/2010 11:00:14 PM
- 830 Views
I'm more looking forward to how the Texans affirm their support for the institution like Spain
09/11/2010 11:36:16 PM
- 638 Views
The Catholic Church as a whole is opposed to capital punishment, and is fairly vocal about it.
09/11/2010 11:55:18 PM
- 7088 Views
But that's personal issues of the clergy and whatnot involved. It's not doctrine
13/11/2010 02:20:38 AM
- 758 Views
Spain doesn't have to deal with Fourteenth Amendments Equal Protection Clause.
10/11/2010 12:25:05 PM
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Re: Spain doesn't have to deal with Fourteenth Amendments Equal Protection Clause.
13/11/2010 02:25:01 AM
- 840 Views
Now that is the way to protest against the Pope. I wish people had thought of that here. *NM*
07/11/2010 09:02:51 PM
- 303 Views
The girl on girl kissing? Hell, yeah.
07/11/2010 09:23:17 PM
- 742 Views
you must have the Ugly lesbian Club in your area
07/11/2010 09:28:02 PM
- 784 Views
Re: you must have the Ugly lesbian Club in your area
07/11/2010 10:05:58 PM
- 755 Views
she's lesbian.
07/11/2010 10:32:37 PM
- 719 Views
Re: she's lesbian.
08/11/2010 01:14:32 AM
- 740 Views
lol sorry. I wasn't trying to come off all offended or like I was trying to spoil your joke
08/11/2010 01:26:54 AM
- 727 Views
Referring to the 1930s and then talking of re-evangelization is a rather painful gaffe, I must say.
07/11/2010 09:13:19 PM
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dang. how big and fancy is this cathedral going to be? *NM*
07/11/2010 09:28:44 PM
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Huge, but mostly it's just been built very slowly for financial reasons.
08/11/2010 10:23:32 AM
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Uh yeah because Franco was worse than the communists....
08/11/2010 03:43:55 AM
- 712 Views
Was he worse? We'll never know, seeing how he was the one that came out on top.
08/11/2010 10:17:10 AM
- 826 Views
Re: Was he worse? We'll never know, seeing how he was the one that came out on top.
08/11/2010 03:31:45 PM
- 889 Views
Re: Was he worse? We'll never know, seeing how he was the one that came out on top.
08/11/2010 10:28:01 PM
- 762 Views
Re: Was he worse? We'll never know, seeing how he was the one that came out on top.
09/11/2010 10:24:38 AM
- 1014 Views
Ah, classic communist logic.
09/11/2010 08:17:48 PM
- 700 Views
I wouldn't expect anything less of him. *NM*
08/11/2010 02:28:36 AM
- 342 Views
Yeah, wouldn't it be hilariously awesome if he was, like, "Dudes, gay marriage ain't so bad." *NM*
08/11/2010 02:58:48 AM
- 402 Views
Again: The Pope doesn't oppress anyone.
08/11/2010 03:40:19 AM
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Awesome, except he's attacking people leaving, too. *NM*
08/11/2010 04:30:02 AM
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I would too.
08/11/2010 05:08:37 AM
- 710 Views
well fine, but you're telling them to leave, and attacking them for doing so.
08/11/2010 07:18:45 PM
- 618 Views
And here come the ad hominem attacks.
08/11/2010 09:32:23 PM
- 775 Views
No, it's more like a boss firing an employee and then bitching about them leaving. *NM*
08/11/2010 10:43:56 PM
- 413 Views
Did you hear the Church have stopped approving applications for people to officially leave,
08/11/2010 07:13:15 PM
- 687 Views
Not at all.
08/11/2010 09:29:29 PM
- 711 Views
Yeah, I'm with Dragonsoul on this one
08/11/2010 09:39:13 PM
- 615 Views
It makes a difference when they use your name as part of a statistic
09/11/2010 12:28:51 AM
- 895 Views
Re: Pope criticises gay marriage and abortion at cathedral consecration in Spain
08/11/2010 05:24:46 PM
- 564 Views
This is funny.
09/11/2010 08:42:52 PM
- 651 Views
I often wonder the same thing, think about the sheer quantity of proven pedophile priests, then...
13/11/2010 11:07:39 PM
- 715 Views