Which neither you nor Cecil Adams have disproven here, so, youbetcha.
Joel Send a noteboard - 08/11/2010 09:50:07 PM
I'm just going to address the premise here, then leave you with a rebuttal for the very old and discredited Ketchup thing, before any one not born before 1981 gets that little piece of nonsense stuck in their heads.
Aisha, who has a history of posting hyper-partisan thinly researched attack pieces on republicans, asked why we dislike Pelosi. This was a bizarre question, but given that she's eased up on the attack pieces in recent months I thought she might be realizing its not so black and white and actually wanted reasons. I gave them. They don't have to be true, though I back everything I said and you've not shown a word of that false. True or not is irrelevant, just like the accusations on Palin or Bush or Cheney, what matters is that they are why, not that they are true, in this context, for her question.
Now, you have come by and backed the 'starving kids' stuff, instead of simply acknowledging it as a bit of over the top political rhetoric done by both sides. Fine and well, but seriously Joel, how do you dare do that when you complain so much about the 'death panels' rhetoric? Do you not maintain at least enough objectivity to see the parallel?
From Straight Dope -
I'm citing Cecil Adams here because to the best of my knowledge he's politically neutral, very factual, and always humorous.
Did the Reagan-era USDA really classify ketchup as a vegetable?
July 16, 2004
Dear Cecil:
The phrase "ketchup is a vegetable" is coming up a lot in discussions of President Reagan's recent demise. What's the story behind that line? Who classifies ketchup, or any other food, as a vegetable, meat, legume, etc? Why do they feel a need to make these official classifications? Who in the Reagan administration actually made that decision? I've also heard that the ketchup-as-vegetable thing was really Carter's doing and that salsa was classified as a vegetable by Clinton. When I search for the origin of the phrase, all I get are a bunch of political sites repeating it without explanation.
— Russ, via e-mail
No wonder. The story is so convoluted that it defied simple explanation at the time. Even today, the episode can be plausibly presented (depending on the political leanings of the presenter) as either a simple bureaucratic screwup or an unsuccessful effort by the right to pursue its agenda at the expense of the nation's kids.
Ketchup and other food products are classified for different purposes by different agencies under a wide variety of federal programs. The classification in this case was by the U.S. Department of Agriculture for its subsidized school lunch program. Then as now, local school districts could receive reimbursement for each lunch served provided it met minimum standards. In mid-1981, only a few months after Reagan took office, Congress cut $1 billion from child-nutrition funding and gave the USDA 90 days--the blink of an eye, for the federal bureaucracy--to come up with new standards that would enable school districts to economize, in theory without compromising nutrition.
The USDA convened a panel of nutritionists and food service directors to ponder what to do. One option on the table--no one later would admit to putting it there--was to "accept catsup as a fruit/vegetable when used as an ingredient." Some panel members seized on this as an opportunity to discuss whether to count ketchup even if used as a condiment. From what I can tell, the motive wasn't so much penuriousness as trying to face facts about what kids would actually eat. USDA standards at the time required that a reimbursable lunch consist of five items: meat, milk, bread, and two servings of fruit or vegetables. Many kids refused to eat the veggies and the stuff wound up as "plate waste." Would-be realists on the panel reasoned that if they could count ketchup as a vegetable they could meet federal standards without having to throw away so many lima beans, thereby saving money while having no impact on the kids. Looked at in a certain light, it made sense. Ketchup wasn't the only newly permissible substitute: pickle relish and conceivably other condiments could also count as vegetables (precise interpretation was left to state officials); protein sources like tofu or cottage cheese could replace meat; and corn chips, pretzels, and other snacks could replace bread. Minimum portion sizes were also reduced, purportedly another effort to reduce waste.
Mid-level Reaganauts at the USDA saw all this as a matter of giving the states more latitude; wiser heads might have realized that the rest of the world would see it as taking food away from children. Unfortunately for Reagan, the 90-day deadline allowed no time for higher review. When the proposed new rules were released for comment in September 1981, food activists went ballistic. Democratic politicians staged photo ops where they feasted on skimpy-looking meals that conformed to the new standards. The mortified administration withdrew the proposal and the USDA official in charge of the program was transferred, a move widely interpreted as a firing. One person who didn't come out of the mess with ketchup on his face was Jimmy Carter, who'd had nothing to do with it.
So, a garden-variety goof, right? It looked worse than that, thanks to agriculture secretary John Block, an antiregulatory zealot who attempted to defend the new rules after the fact, claiming they'd been misunderstood. Nonsense; they were just stupid. All intentions aside, counting condiments as vegetables and reducing portion sizes were an invitation to abuse. A few months later the USDA adopted for preschools and elementary schools a more sensible policy already used in high schools, called "offer vs. serve"--schools still had to offer the five meal components, but students could refuse any two. In the 90s, the Clinton administration got little grief when it proposed counting salsa as a vegetable, as properly made salsa has more nutritional heft than sugar-laden ketchup.
A reprise of the ketchup fiasco loomed recently when a federal judge approved new USDA regs classifying batter-coated french fries as a fresh vegetable. Another attempt by the GOP to feed junk food to the playground set? Actually, it had more to do with creditor priority during bankruptcy settlements, believe it or not--but please, don't ask me to explain more than one bit of bureaucratic arcana at a time.
— Cecil Adams
Aisha, who has a history of posting hyper-partisan thinly researched attack pieces on republicans, asked why we dislike Pelosi. This was a bizarre question, but given that she's eased up on the attack pieces in recent months I thought she might be realizing its not so black and white and actually wanted reasons. I gave them. They don't have to be true, though I back everything I said and you've not shown a word of that false. True or not is irrelevant, just like the accusations on Palin or Bush or Cheney, what matters is that they are why, not that they are true, in this context, for her question.
Now, you have come by and backed the 'starving kids' stuff, instead of simply acknowledging it as a bit of over the top political rhetoric done by both sides. Fine and well, but seriously Joel, how do you dare do that when you complain so much about the 'death panels' rhetoric? Do you not maintain at least enough objectivity to see the parallel?
From Straight Dope -
I'm citing Cecil Adams here because to the best of my knowledge he's politically neutral, very factual, and always humorous.
Did the Reagan-era USDA really classify ketchup as a vegetable?
July 16, 2004
Dear Cecil:
The phrase "ketchup is a vegetable" is coming up a lot in discussions of President Reagan's recent demise. What's the story behind that line? Who classifies ketchup, or any other food, as a vegetable, meat, legume, etc? Why do they feel a need to make these official classifications? Who in the Reagan administration actually made that decision? I've also heard that the ketchup-as-vegetable thing was really Carter's doing and that salsa was classified as a vegetable by Clinton. When I search for the origin of the phrase, all I get are a bunch of political sites repeating it without explanation.
— Russ, via e-mail
No wonder. The story is so convoluted that it defied simple explanation at the time. Even today, the episode can be plausibly presented (depending on the political leanings of the presenter) as either a simple bureaucratic screwup or an unsuccessful effort by the right to pursue its agenda at the expense of the nation's kids.
Ketchup and other food products are classified for different purposes by different agencies under a wide variety of federal programs. The classification in this case was by the U.S. Department of Agriculture for its subsidized school lunch program. Then as now, local school districts could receive reimbursement for each lunch served provided it met minimum standards. In mid-1981, only a few months after Reagan took office, Congress cut $1 billion from child-nutrition funding and gave the USDA 90 days--the blink of an eye, for the federal bureaucracy--to come up with new standards that would enable school districts to economize, in theory without compromising nutrition.
The USDA convened a panel of nutritionists and food service directors to ponder what to do. One option on the table--no one later would admit to putting it there--was to "accept catsup as a fruit/vegetable when used as an ingredient." Some panel members seized on this as an opportunity to discuss whether to count ketchup even if used as a condiment. From what I can tell, the motive wasn't so much penuriousness as trying to face facts about what kids would actually eat. USDA standards at the time required that a reimbursable lunch consist of five items: meat, milk, bread, and two servings of fruit or vegetables. Many kids refused to eat the veggies and the stuff wound up as "plate waste." Would-be realists on the panel reasoned that if they could count ketchup as a vegetable they could meet federal standards without having to throw away so many lima beans, thereby saving money while having no impact on the kids. Looked at in a certain light, it made sense. Ketchup wasn't the only newly permissible substitute: pickle relish and conceivably other condiments could also count as vegetables (precise interpretation was left to state officials); protein sources like tofu or cottage cheese could replace meat; and corn chips, pretzels, and other snacks could replace bread. Minimum portion sizes were also reduced, purportedly another effort to reduce waste.
Mid-level Reaganauts at the USDA saw all this as a matter of giving the states more latitude; wiser heads might have realized that the rest of the world would see it as taking food away from children. Unfortunately for Reagan, the 90-day deadline allowed no time for higher review. When the proposed new rules were released for comment in September 1981, food activists went ballistic. Democratic politicians staged photo ops where they feasted on skimpy-looking meals that conformed to the new standards. The mortified administration withdrew the proposal and the USDA official in charge of the program was transferred, a move widely interpreted as a firing. One person who didn't come out of the mess with ketchup on his face was Jimmy Carter, who'd had nothing to do with it.
So, a garden-variety goof, right? It looked worse than that, thanks to agriculture secretary John Block, an antiregulatory zealot who attempted to defend the new rules after the fact, claiming they'd been misunderstood. Nonsense; they were just stupid. All intentions aside, counting condiments as vegetables and reducing portion sizes were an invitation to abuse. A few months later the USDA adopted for preschools and elementary schools a more sensible policy already used in high schools, called "offer vs. serve"--schools still had to offer the five meal components, but students could refuse any two. In the 90s, the Clinton administration got little grief when it proposed counting salsa as a vegetable, as properly made salsa has more nutritional heft than sugar-laden ketchup.
A reprise of the ketchup fiasco loomed recently when a federal judge approved new USDA regs classifying batter-coated french fries as a fresh vegetable. Another attempt by the GOP to feed junk food to the playground set? Actually, it had more to do with creditor priority during bankruptcy settlements, believe it or not--but please, don't ask me to explain more than one bit of bureaucratic arcana at a time.
— Cecil Adams
So in other words, the charge is valid on its face, as I said: They WERE penny pinching, counting ketchup as a veggie was a direct result, Reagan signed off on it, and one of the umpteen "fire and regulation BAD!" Reaganites tried to defend it. Meanwhile, his penny penching boss raised taxes on the poor to pay for tax cuts for the wealthiest. So, yes, the Republican Party enriched millionaires by making poor children go hungry. Had they not been handing out tax cuts to those who didn't need them (during a recession, no less) it wouldn't be an issue, which, as much as the greater nutritional value, is why Clinton doing the same with salsa doesn't bother me: He was raising EVERYONES taxes at the time, because he was trying to balance a budget. For all the talk about balanced budgets under both, I believe Reagan and Bush raised taxes a grand total of once each, when the failures of Reagans first term created a second recession and when Bush saw first hand how accurate his term "voodoo economics" was. In other words, we've raised taxes about three times in as many decades, cutting them furiously in the interim, a growing federal and trade deficit along with a bloated dollar. Personally, I pity anyone working at the CBO these days because their bosses can't handle simple integer math.
And yes, it's completely different from "death panels", if only because the very private insurers said to be our saviors invented them decades ago and have used them ever since; you can't blame Obama for creating something twenty years old even if it DID function as described (also, the death panel charges are factually untrue and the people making them know it, while the ketchup-as-vegetable charge is factually accurate and we both know it). Wikipedia even claims that during the healthcare debate insurers tried to insert a rider that both prohibited the feds from using cost benefit analysis boards AND guaranteed private insurers the right to do so in perpetuity. So much for running government like a business, eh?
Your other point is also valid as far as it goes; yes, Republicans are understandably annoyed when Democrats (or anyone) make shaming accusations against them, but when the accusations are TRUE much of your points impact is blunted. Again, it boils down to being mad that Dems tell the public things the Republican Party has actually done. FWIW, I'm sorry the GOP routinely does shameful things, too; I'm sorry both major parties do, which is why I support neither.
In fact, I had a thought last night about a true Independent Party, whose only ideology would be "We will vote for neither Republicans or Democrats". Granted, you don't have to look farther than the Tea Party (or the American Party, which has numerous similarities) to know a serious party needs a platform, not just a slogan.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Why do conservatives hate Nancy Pelosi?
07/11/2010 09:26:53 PM
- 1270 Views
possibly because she is too good at her job
07/11/2010 10:10:28 PM
- 896 Views
I suspect that's much of it, though she does lend herself to caricature.
08/11/2010 02:46:54 AM
- 685 Views
Misogyny is a big part, Tom Daschle and Harry Reid was never hated as much as her
08/11/2010 05:01:08 AM
- 683 Views
I'm not sure that's enough; Pelosi's far more liberal than either of them.
08/11/2010 09:51:33 PM
- 689 Views
Well, not to point out the obvious, but she was Speaker of the House
07/11/2010 10:18:33 PM
- 741 Views
Re: Well, not to point out the obvious, but she was Speaker of the House
08/11/2010 12:14:42 AM
- 636 Views
One of those charges is valid though, sadly.
08/11/2010 03:02:35 AM
- 684 Views
The ketchup controversy, seriously?
08/11/2010 06:00:58 AM
- 942 Views
Which neither you nor Cecil Adams have disproven here, so, youbetcha.
08/11/2010 09:50:07 PM
- 1032 Views
This probably one of those rare ones where will have to agree to disagree
09/11/2010 01:08:54 AM
- 763 Views
Perhaps, since we seem to disagree on the facts as well as how they were spun.
10/11/2010 01:10:21 PM
- 703 Views
Joel has a few pet "facts" that he bases his world view around
10/11/2010 02:08:20 PM
- 667 Views
Hey, I didn't bring up the GOP starving kids to enrich millionaires.
10/11/2010 05:53:07 PM
- 723 Views
really one interview with one guy who has been out of power for decades
10/11/2010 06:57:16 PM
- 598 Views
The interview was quite relevant when given.
10/11/2010 09:32:27 PM
- 647 Views
but you know all about the inner workings because of an entire party?
10/11/2010 11:29:35 PM
- 636 Views
No, Pelosi did, that's the point
10/11/2010 09:41:39 PM
- 758 Views
I understand, but what's really sad is it's hard to be sure WHICH GOP policy she meant.
10/11/2010 10:03:22 PM
- 937 Views
Because Nancy Pelosi is rather...liberal in her Political Positions.
08/11/2010 02:20:56 AM
- 713 Views
I wouldn't call myself conservative but I don't like her because...
08/11/2010 02:40:19 AM
- 682 Views
Yet she accomplished a lot more than Obama and Reids bipartisanship.
08/11/2010 03:13:33 AM
- 643 Views
No, she didn't.
08/11/2010 03:42:45 AM
- 678 Views
Bipartisanship was never on the table, and Obama DID try (too hard).
08/11/2010 09:30:15 PM
- 626 Views
he had a luncheon and everything
10/11/2010 04:16:01 PM
- 596 Views
Trying to work with people dedicated to his demise was a SYMPTOM of his leadership failings.
10/11/2010 05:44:29 PM
- 730 Views
Trying to pick off a few republicans is not the same thing as working with them
10/11/2010 06:56:04 PM
- 643 Views
After that link...
10/11/2010 09:44:32 PM
- 611 Views
yes but when the middle hate you then you are in real trouble
10/11/2010 11:34:28 PM
- 707 Views
I don't think the middle hates him, they're just disgusted with him.
11/11/2010 01:44:54 PM
- 1515 Views
Re: Trying to work with people dedicated to his demise was a SYMPTOM of his leadership failings.
10/11/2010 07:04:57 PM
- 638 Views
Sounds like the bill they SHOULD'VE passed.
10/11/2010 09:23:53 PM
- 681 Views
That bill is part of why Bob Bennett lost his senate seat.
10/11/2010 09:32:36 PM
- 538 Views
I suspected that might be the case when I was reading about it at the link.
10/11/2010 09:39:53 PM
- 776 Views
I'm just gonna put this idea out there...
08/11/2010 07:17:36 PM
- 797 Views
I can see Russia from my house? *NM*
09/11/2010 12:15:40 AM
- 308 Views
Yeah, I thought he explained it rather well, until...
09/11/2010 08:26:13 AM
- 622 Views
Did she actually say that?
09/11/2010 03:31:50 PM
- 659 Views
She did say that, I'm not sure if it's EXACTLY what she said...
09/11/2010 04:04:02 PM
- 624 Views
it doesn't matter what she says people need to believe she is stupid so they find proof even
09/11/2010 04:36:28 PM
- 812 Views
well if it makes you feel better, I don't think she's particularly unintelligent
09/11/2010 05:03:03 PM
- 662 Views
Believe she actually said something about having Russia for a neighbor gave her foreign policy cred.
10/11/2010 06:04:15 PM
- 804 Views
She merely said one could see Russia from somewhere in Alaska, which I believe is correct.
09/11/2010 04:15:05 PM
- 932 Views
it does seem to be a pretty silly thing to say without more to directly accompany it.
09/11/2010 04:32:02 PM
- 722 Views
Only you would jump to physical appearance as the first and only reason you can think of *NM*
09/11/2010 11:24:36 PM
- 295 Views
I don't hate her. I just have a great dislike for her political views.
10/11/2010 09:38:38 PM
- 648 Views
She's too conservative for you? Really? *NM*
11/11/2010 05:22:59 PM
- 386 Views
Yes. I come from a country where she would be seen as quite right-wing politician.
13/11/2010 12:29:26 AM
- 614 Views
Wow, what qualifies as far to the left in Sweden?
13/11/2010 01:52:40 AM
- 590 Views