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I never said anybody was an idiot. everynametaken Send a noteboard - 05/11/2010 04:09:51 AM
We have all grown up on a steady diet of advertising, I don't know why you find the toy troublesome, its no different then any of the following:

A fortune cookie


This is clearly a very weak reinforcer, especially for an adult.

A comic in a Bazooka Joe gum wrapper


This might work with kids, it most certainly wouldn't work for an adult. Besides, it would only work as a reinforcer if the kid actually likes comics.

A piece of trivia printed on a sugar packet, oatmeal, or cereal box


This is probably not a reinforcer for anyone. No one is going to tear into the sugar pack or oatmeal pack and eat it because there is something interesting printed on the back. And it is doubtful that anyone would even buy it for that if they can just pick it up without opening it and read it.

The toys regularly include in snack and cereal boxes


This example is very much like the toy in the happy meal. The aspect I didn't go into depth about in my previous post was how a simple reinforcer then strengthens corresponding associations through classical conditioning so that the reinforcer is not even needed anymore. Thus the funny character on the box can over time evoke the same response as the "reward" of the toy for opening the box and eating the cereal.

Or for a non-food example:

In the newspaper... the comics, the crossword, the horoscope, and advice columns... none of which qualify as news, except arguably the horoscope, since in theory they are providing people very relevant and personal news.


Again, these are very weak reinforcers. None of these play a major symbolic role in an adults life. A toy on the other hand encompasses a large symbolic value in a child's life as that is mostly what children spend their time doing, playing and experimenting with toys of various sorts. Having a child do something (like eat) and then handing the kid a toy in response has a much stronger effect than the things you listed for multiple reasons. The effect is even stronger when younger when the child hasn't developed the cognitive faculties and is even more influential by basic behavioral learning.

Do not misunderstand me, I do not think that a happy meal toy dooms a kid to eat fast food the rest of his life. And actually if the kid is reinforced with stronger reinforcers to an alternative behavior then he or she will probably soon forget all about happy meals. But face it, that isn't what many parents do. Instead they continually eat there and the cycle of behavior and reinforcement continues. That is my point. The toy is important in the process because of the meaning it has for a kid. A toy for most kids is of far greater significance than something minor like a fortune cookie for an adult (typically the cost of the meal to get the cookie far outweighs the benefit of obtaining the reinforcer cookie).

What all of these things have in common is that they are add-ons not directly connected to the obvious purpose of the product, and they are included because more people like them enough to cover the additional cost then reject the product for the increased cost. They're not cocaine, its not sinister, its fools who think they know what's best because everyone else are stupid sheep that are the real problem, because they focus on one thing, get hysterical, and ignore all the parallel cases.


No, they aren't cocaine. Again, I never claimed they were but they are marketing ploys that use a basic and powerful principle of human behavior and learning to get kids to want their product. Again, toys are especially powerful with kids because they don't have the range of alternative behaviors that adults have and they don't have the cognitive skills that adults have to deduce a cost/benefits analysis of eating fast food. Toys and playing are an integral part of childhood learning. Why do you think happy meals are for kids but teenagers grow out of them and move on? One reason (certainly not the only reason)is that a toy is not reinforcing to a teenager as they no longer play with them. So, the company finds other ways to market to the teenagers (and adults) like stickers that give away free food and prizes (for adults). Another good one I've watched over the years is the restaurants letting the teens hang out there (as long as they buy something of course). McDonalds is now remodeling restaurants all over the country to make them like mini-cafes with internet access and chairs to sit and relax in. A more cozy, comfortable place to chill out and socialize and surf the net.

Many people like fortune cookies just enough to sway some people into eating there, many people go to one restaurant because they like the decor, neither of these examples, nor the Happy Meal Toy, represent legit add-ons to nutritious or delicious food in of themselves. Just as the crossword or the horoscope don't make my paper any more informative nor does the trivia on my sugar packet make my coffee any sweeter and God knows the whip cream and chocolate sprinkles on my mocha certainly aren't significantly increasing my caffeine intake. They just add something extra to the experience, and people like that something extra, so the producers give it to them. A car gets you from point A to point B, a radio is not necessary, but its popular and so its a standard feature, increasing the cost of a vehicle, the toy is the same, and I think everyone knows this, most of us have watched thousands of hours of commercials in our lives after all, you don't really think any parents thought McD's threw in toys for altruism or didn't think a kid who enjoyed the toy might be more inclined to want another Happy Meal in the future, did you?


I don't want to keep picking apart what is and what isn't a strong reinforcer. But, I will say this. No, I don;t think most parents ever really think about what the toy in the happy meal is really for. I mean they might kind of have an idea that there is something to it to get their kid's attention but they don't really understand how strong the effect can be. Personally, I blame psychologists everywhere for being very poor communicators of our craft. I regret saying this but we psychologists (I include myself) are very poor at communicating what we know to non-scientists. Many of us are so busy trying to get in to grad school or get published or land teaching positions, etc. that we often overlook the importance of the information we have and its relevance to the average person who will probably never hear about the mechanics of behavior and learning.

There are literally thousands if not millions of examples of these tiny little lures used to promote items, the only excuse to go after fast food on this while ignoring everyone else is that its bad for your health, but as Chas just pointed out, citing an article an incredibly clever fellow on this site once posted, fast food as particularly unhealthy is basically nonsense, thus removing even that incredibly thin justification. I don't think 'coco-puffs with secret treasure inside' ever fooled many adults for its health value, and as we say, if it did fool them, then the kids under their parentage have much more serious hurdles for their childhood then a slightly increased risk of cavities and obesity, like Dad's bad habit of blowing the family savings on bridges people keep selling him for low low prices.


First let me say again that I don't think that the toy is the be all end all of reinforcers for a child but it is a stronger reinforcer than what people who have been posting in here seem to think it is.
Also let me restate, I don't think legislation is really an answer. As I said, in this instance, educating parents about the effects of advertising and the psychology behind it would probably have a better result. I always opt for education over legislation. If parents are told what is going on and they choose to ignore it then they are at fault for playing into the manipulation of marketers. But just forbidding something that seems trivial even though it is not just pisses people off.
As far as the article goes, even though I think the guy who did that movie is full of shit, I am also not buying the argument that fast food isn't that bad either. I don't want to get into that one but I'll just say that there is a lot more to health then just adding up calories and fat grams. For just one example, it is becoming clearer and clearer in nutrition that not every calorie is equal and insulin response is extremely important when it comes to food intake. Maybe we can discuss that topic another time. :)
But wine was the great assassin of both tradition and propriety...
-Brandon Sanderson, The Way of Kings
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San Francisco Bans The Happy Meal - 04/11/2010 04:00:12 AM 1792 Views
Great. Now I'll never finish my Polly Pocket army. *NM* - 04/11/2010 05:10:26 AM 503 Views
now, they only really banned the toy that comes with the happy meal if it doesn't meet guidelines - 04/11/2010 06:32:46 AM 1160 Views
yup - 04/11/2010 09:23:44 AM 1164 Views
Indeed. *NM* - 04/11/2010 09:36:53 AM 440 Views
Yes *NM* - 04/11/2010 10:59:52 AM 490 Views
the government should not have to right to say how I feed my child - 04/11/2010 01:37:41 PM 972 Views
I find feeding happy meals to children far more appalling. - 04/11/2010 01:39:13 PM 925 Views
what you like to eat really isn't the point though - 04/11/2010 02:13:31 PM 1093 Views
I know, I was just saying that McDonald's is crappy, period - 04/11/2010 02:16:19 PM 903 Views
the government limits the kind of advertising your child sees during saturday morning cartoons - 04/11/2010 03:36:47 PM 845 Views
that isn't even close to the same thing - 04/11/2010 04:15:09 PM 968 Views
Don't forget the removal of more and more activity. - 05/11/2010 12:32:03 AM 818 Views
yeah that is why kids are getting fat - 05/11/2010 04:26:38 AM 868 Views
wow, ever consider that political leanings have nothing to do with my opinion - 05/11/2010 11:59:15 AM 1045 Views
your the one who wanted to bring your politics into it - 05/11/2010 12:23:08 PM 889 Views
uhm, what? I said no such thing. - 05/11/2010 12:33:22 PM 1036 Views
maybe I spend to much time arguing with Joel - 05/11/2010 02:20:34 PM 969 Views
that is likely the case - 05/11/2010 03:26:46 PM 1068 Views
it is exactly the same thing you're just trying to dance around the issue - 05/11/2010 06:31:26 AM 1066 Views
saying something does not make it true - 05/11/2010 12:17:00 PM 1036 Views
what choices are you being denied? - 05/11/2010 02:59:00 PM 888 Views
well I can't buy my kid a happy meal with toy in it - 05/11/2010 04:43:44 PM 884 Views
The metric system rocks *NM* - 04/11/2010 09:18:29 AM 618 Views
Good! *NM* - 04/11/2010 09:36:21 AM 633 Views
I wouldn't touch the metric system with a 1.038m pole *NM* - 04/11/2010 10:47:51 AM 608 Views
You mean 3.048m (10 feet) *NM* - 04/11/2010 05:22:58 PM 572 Views
Yes...don't know where I got 1.038m from *NM* - 05/11/2010 01:24:21 AM 599 Views
The law is just fighting a small symptom of a much bigger problem - 04/11/2010 11:24:19 AM 1216 Views
yes - 04/11/2010 11:47:47 AM 1263 Views
make something idiot-proof and we'll just make better idiots... - 05/11/2010 06:33:54 AM 889 Views
100% agree, in respect to this and other related subjects. - 04/11/2010 01:42:32 PM 1098 Views
why do you think Wendy's is more healthy than McDonalds? - 05/11/2010 04:30:54 AM 1068 Views
it's not MUCH more healthy. - 05/11/2010 12:00:31 PM 884 Views
I don't think the toy is that big of a draw for kids, really. - 04/11/2010 05:11:10 PM 930 Views
The toys were a definite draw for mine - 05/11/2010 08:20:05 AM 977 Views
Perhaps - 05/11/2010 07:41:17 PM 1129 Views
Here in Aus we have fruit bags, and water etc. options for Happy Meals - 04/11/2010 12:32:16 PM 947 Views
The healthier variety is starting to become more common in kids meals. - 04/11/2010 12:50:44 PM 1091 Views
milk or juice have ALWAYS been options, and every mcdonalds i've been to has offered the apples. *NM* - 04/11/2010 01:36:34 PM 572 Views
Too bad milk and juice are horrible choices too. *NM* - 04/11/2010 10:54:36 PM 606 Views
uhmm, bullshit. - 04/11/2010 11:39:09 PM 1086 Views
Juice is nothing but sugar and milk as healthy is debatable. - 05/11/2010 12:37:34 AM 1085 Views
juice is not just sugar. - 05/11/2010 02:11:12 AM 1043 Views
I'm not talking about juicing vegetables and fresh fruit. - 05/11/2010 03:06:54 AM 1003 Views
no it was not clear. You merely said "Juice" - 05/11/2010 03:16:01 AM 1071 Views
Milk is delicious. And it (when low-fat/skim) isn't actively bad for you. - 05/11/2010 03:33:53 AM 856 Views
I know, but...just...EW. - 05/11/2010 03:43:49 AM 1137 Views
but it is yummy and you make yummy things out of it - 05/11/2010 02:47:37 PM 872 Views
I like the yummy foods made, I admit. - 05/11/2010 03:35:28 PM 905 Views
Agreed, as long as it's treated the right way (i.e. not the American way). *NM* - 05/11/2010 09:56:16 AM 581 Views
Please elaborate. - 05/11/2010 01:27:45 PM 1027 Views
I remember the first time I came to Northern America (Canada, then) and tried drinking milk... - 05/11/2010 04:44:01 PM 1080 Views
You can get UHT milk - 05/11/2010 04:47:53 PM 917 Views
I think what you describe... - 05/11/2010 05:21:35 PM 1055 Views
Indeed it is. - 05/11/2010 05:49:48 PM 949 Views
How about the water? - 05/11/2010 06:24:09 PM 884 Views
No idea... didn't really notice anything there. - 05/11/2010 06:40:16 PM 1015 Views
Tap water in Philly tasted sooo much like chlorine - 08/11/2010 11:43:36 AM 1001 Views
No UHT in Scandinavia, though - 05/11/2010 06:34:17 PM 1038 Views
Oh yeah, that UHT milk is evil. *NM* - 05/11/2010 09:30:35 PM 578 Views
OK. My bad. - 05/11/2010 04:11:53 AM 1139 Views
Re: juice is not just sugar. - 05/11/2010 01:11:06 PM 972 Views
so what do you think kids should drink? - 05/11/2010 04:28:36 AM 1004 Views
Do this little experiment. Please. - 05/11/2010 12:53:49 PM 884 Views
that is why my kids drinks milk or water and not juice 99% of time - 05/11/2010 02:03:08 PM 961 Views
Of course! - 05/11/2010 02:11:35 PM 1075 Views
I am fighting my wife right now over the yogurt in a tube crap - 05/11/2010 02:35:41 PM 865 Views
Ok did some math. - 05/11/2010 04:35:48 PM 1118 Views
she buys Horizon which is 57 grams 10 of which are sugar - 05/11/2010 05:16:22 PM 965 Views
I'm with you on this one. *NM* - 05/11/2010 12:37:59 PM 573 Views
it is - 04/11/2010 02:11:44 PM 1184 Views
This is pretty stupid. - 04/11/2010 02:13:17 PM 1052 Views
That part was a bit of hyperbole, I'm afraid. *NM* - 04/11/2010 03:01:52 PM 593 Views
Not very much! - 04/11/2010 03:04:58 PM 943 Views
And - 04/11/2010 03:17:34 PM 1130 Views
Re: And - 04/11/2010 03:27:12 PM 1054 Views
You know what? - 04/11/2010 03:35:54 PM 822 Views
I feel so exploited now - 04/11/2010 03:31:26 PM 1252 Views
*dons detective hat* Very interesting... - 04/11/2010 03:35:08 PM 858 Views
Re: *dons detective hat* Very interesting... - 04/11/2010 03:57:04 PM 1099 Views
Another hint - 04/11/2010 04:02:54 PM 1003 Views
Re: Another hint - 04/11/2010 04:23:28 PM 1045 Views
Ah, Republicans and sex scandals. They go together like beer and kebabs, - 04/11/2010 04:29:19 PM 895 Views
So, that would make him mexican? *NM* - 04/11/2010 06:54:03 PM 566 Views
Hmm - 04/11/2010 04:27:00 PM 935 Views
40 hours? Really? - 06/11/2010 06:59:57 PM 1021 Views
Wow. *NM* - 04/11/2010 11:56:45 PM 575 Views
No kidding. *NM* - 05/11/2010 03:08:20 AM 558 Views
All we need is for someone else to pay for our national defense and we can do it *NM* - 04/11/2010 04:16:28 PM 586 Views
That makes me even less likely to enjoy those last 8 hours. - 09/11/2010 03:12:53 PM 884 Views
They should ban something which may have effect instead. - 04/11/2010 02:27:05 PM 1122 Views
The toys do have effect. It's a positive reinforcer to eating the meal. - 04/11/2010 10:57:49 PM 830 Views
So it's back to being a small cheeseburger meal then? *NM* - 04/11/2010 02:30:34 PM 602 Views
What a bunch of morons. - 04/11/2010 06:45:31 PM 1112 Views
these are the same people who keep sending Pelosi back year after year *NM* - 04/11/2010 06:49:16 PM 440 Views
I accidentally posted this in the wrong spot. I reposted below to the original thread. - 04/11/2010 11:22:32 PM 1053 Views
Re: - 05/11/2010 12:02:41 AM 895 Views
I'm not sure what your point is. - 05/11/2010 12:42:14 AM 856 Views
That fast food is not inherently bad/unhealthy. - 05/11/2010 01:16:51 AM 1051 Views
Many here don't seem to understand the purpose of the toy. - 05/11/2010 12:43:27 AM 1104 Views
I think you should assume we're not idiots - 05/11/2010 02:05:51 AM 919 Views
I never said anybody was an idiot. - 05/11/2010 04:09:51 AM 1224 Views
kids of the happy meal age should not be deciding what they get to eat - 05/11/2010 04:37:43 AM 1142 Views
This. - 05/11/2010 02:00:32 PM 865 Views
Re: kids of the happy meal age should not be deciding what they get to eat - 05/11/2010 06:27:21 PM 1005 Views
Your overly-simplified psychology is wrong - 05/11/2010 01:58:55 PM 1064 Views
raw milk is banned because of the potential of illness. - 05/11/2010 06:20:01 PM 1007 Views
You miss my point (or helped me make it) - 05/11/2010 07:58:59 PM 892 Views
because raw milk SALE AND DISTRIBUTION does not only affect the individual. - 05/11/2010 08:37:10 PM 1189 Views
Excuse me, I have a degree in psychology and I have oversimplified nothing. - 05/11/2010 06:42:24 PM 1163 Views
Like others have said... - 05/11/2010 08:03:09 PM 1093 Views
Jesus Christ. Are you daft or what? - 05/11/2010 11:04:41 PM 877 Views
silly rabbit, science is for suckers!! - 06/11/2010 12:28:31 AM 957 Views
psychology is a pseudoscience - 10/11/2010 07:13:52 PM 1660 Views
Well - 06/11/2010 07:27:51 PM 1172 Views
As a mother of a Wongy Junior all of 9 years... - 08/11/2010 03:07:00 AM 1184 Views
if they wanted to have a real impact they would ban drive throughs *NM* - 05/11/2010 04:39:52 AM 558 Views
My opinion: This is bad form. - 05/11/2010 01:18:25 PM 1007 Views
oO but that's what's so AMAZINGLY DELICIOUS about soda.. - 06/11/2010 02:02:45 AM 1013 Views
Yet again government not letting people make their own decisions - 10/11/2010 03:01:15 AM 1088 Views

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