There's a difference between allowing for the idea or the expression of intolerance, and tolerating a policy of intolerance. I don't disallow that the KKK should be allow to hold marches and want to found an Aryan race, but I would never support that policy in the name of "understanding" or "tolerance" or "Voltaire" or anything else. I'm fine if Joe the revivalist preacher from down the street wants to rail against homosexuals all day (or more frequently, rail homosexuals all night, and then get pulled over for a DUI leaving some backhills gay bar) but I'm not cool with a policy of intolerance. So no, I do no support the policy of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", but I do support your right or anyone else's right to want to have it as a policy. It's like cultural relativism -- I love the philosophy, but in my magic world, two Arab kids wouldn't be buried up to their shoulders and stoned to death just for getting a little horny.
Cultural relativism says cannibalism is moral in cultures where it's the norm, because there is no true "norm. " Instead, no matter how barbaric and inhumane an act, if there is, was or could be a culture somewhere where it was accepted, it's not immoral, and if you'd just open your mind a little more you'd see that. Needless to say I strongly disagree, because I still hold that your right to be a cannibal ends where it intersects my liver (chianti or no. ) Among other reasons, but most of those would reference my religious beliefs, so....
Tolerance is another thing entirely, because supporting my right to want a policy you'll legally prevent me from implementing... well, how would you feel if I told you I support your right to WANT to marry someone of your gender, but will still do everything in my power to make it legally impossible? Pretty empty statement, no? You can and should oppose the policy if you think it's morally wrong, but as long as I keep it on private property you don't have the right to do anything more than try to be persuasive (and I do mean "persuasive" not "coercive. " ) Maybe that's what you meant and I just misunderstood (in which case I'm wasting a helluva lot of keystrokes, but it would hardly be the first time. )
Really, what other basis is there for tolerating things like the Klan? Unless we're going to affirm them via moral relativism there's not much to defend about the beliefs themselves, so the only options remaining are to either defend their RIGHT to those reprehensible beliefs, or condemn even that as unacceptable in a civilized country. The courts have come VERY close to doing just that with the Klan--on the grounds that they incite violence even when not actively committing it.
That, I still maintain, is the litmus test, not how mainstream a practice is in any given society. If it were the latter this thread and THOUSANDS of others like it over the years wouldn't exist: Homosexuality is decidedly less common in every modern society I can think of, so either moral relativism isn't an applicable metric here, or there's nothing to debate. This isn't complicated, though it can be a bit nuanced: You can disagree with people. Strongly. Loudly. Uncompromisingly. You can try to dissuade them (shouting epitaphs actually falls more under the category of "assault" than "free speech" incidentally; you may not get prosecuted, but if you get the crap beat out of you the other person ought to have a shot at claiming you provoked him. ) You just can't do anything to actually PREVENT them, because it's their choice. That, and the fact it's counter to very basis of Christianity, is why I'm not canvassing the neighborhood dragging people to the river.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 15/10/2010 at 01:17:23 AM
Love the Sinner
13/10/2010 04:07:28 PM
- 1181 Views
I have to think about that for a while.
13/10/2010 04:30:56 PM
- 714 Views
Suicide is significantly higher in young gay populations
13/10/2010 05:36:01 PM
- 653 Views
That is not what I think requires thought
13/10/2010 05:56:06 PM
- 657 Views
Nossy I ain't a mind reader, no matter how I try or how much I would do Jean Grey
13/10/2010 06:06:42 PM
- 787 Views
ok now show that it caused by what Christian beliefs *NM*
13/10/2010 06:50:32 PM
- 341 Views
I don't think it's the belief's themselves
14/10/2010 12:20:01 AM
- 696 Views
The churches who encourage people to bully gays should be condemned
14/10/2010 06:43:06 PM
- 688 Views
Ah, that Ghandi quote sure does get around. (which is funny, since he wasn't a Christian)
13/10/2010 05:07:42 PM
- 774 Views
I'm not sure that is true
13/10/2010 05:16:30 PM
- 659 Views
When's the last time you heard the quote attributed to anyone else?
13/10/2010 08:34:10 PM
- 634 Views
That many people don't know the correct origin doesn't change it though
13/10/2010 09:31:13 PM
- 785 Views
I think you are missing his point
13/10/2010 05:45:45 PM
- 739 Views
Question (and this one actually is asking for information )...
13/10/2010 06:42:17 PM
- 573 Views
I have seen gays be bullied before
13/10/2010 07:02:35 PM
- 766 Views
You just didn't listen to a thing I said *NM*
13/10/2010 07:09:29 PM
- 301 Views
why do you believe that? Because I don't agree with what you said?
13/10/2010 07:30:27 PM
- 685 Views
I said you aren't listening to a thing I said, for you didn't respond to anything that I wrote
13/10/2010 07:52:50 PM
- 667 Views
you are not interested in talking to anyone who doesn't agree with you
13/10/2010 09:01:03 PM
- 656 Views
I think there's truth in this as well.
13/10/2010 07:55:00 PM
- 709 Views
churches tend to refelect society as much if not more then they influence it
14/10/2010 07:15:35 PM
- 680 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point
13/10/2010 08:30:42 PM
- 741 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point
13/10/2010 09:55:52 PM
- 747 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point
14/10/2010 03:49:14 PM
- 733 Views
Actually you can very much debate whether homosexuality is a sin on a textual level
14/10/2010 05:49:22 PM
- 766 Views
Re: Actually you can very much debate whether homosexuality is a sin on a textual level
14/10/2010 08:52:24 PM
- 775 Views
Do you know greek or hebrew?
14/10/2010 08:57:32 PM
- 634 Views
I know a few words here and there, but not really. Do you?
14/10/2010 10:46:36 PM
- 760 Views
There's a good case on both sides (try Strong's Concordance, if you haven't, btw. )
15/10/2010 05:09:21 AM
- 1178 Views
You're kind of sidestepping a large part of his point
13/10/2010 05:51:53 PM
- 783 Views
so should Christians abandon other religious conviction to stop bullying?
13/10/2010 07:39:54 PM
- 684 Views
Many good points there; I think I'll let you play Defender of the Faith for a bit.
14/10/2010 08:50:23 AM
- 778 Views
I think he is jackass that does not believe other's can have apoint of view
13/10/2010 06:48:12 PM
- 677 Views
That's right, bullying would go away if we didn't have Christians to make moral judgements on things
13/10/2010 08:11:27 PM
- 767 Views
I mostly agree
13/10/2010 08:19:00 PM
- 833 Views
most of the bullies I remember from school were not known for their regular church attendance
14/10/2010 07:24:06 PM
- 646 Views
Let me see if I can understand where we agree, it is hard to do with all the Sarcasm
13/10/2010 08:48:38 PM
- 718 Views
Meh. He's not entirely incorrect. But not all Christians are anti-gay.
13/10/2010 08:43:04 PM
- 739 Views
It is better to be a Tolkein than a Token
13/10/2010 08:52:09 PM
- 711 Views
If I were a Tolkien liberal Christian, wouldn't that make me an American Roman Catholic? *NM*
13/10/2010 09:18:57 PM
- 279 Views
Interesting
13/10/2010 08:56:46 PM
- 999 Views
His first three sentences were totally unecessary. The rest is conspiracy-laden nonsense.
14/10/2010 12:37:06 AM
- 763 Views
Re:
14/10/2010 03:06:36 AM
- 752 Views
I think Chora has dibs on that bumper sticker.
14/10/2010 09:35:02 AM
- 816 Views
Re:
14/10/2010 11:50:04 PM
- 759 Views
It's nothing at all like cultural relativism.
15/10/2010 01:16:10 AM
- 661 Views
I don't think there is any question...
14/10/2010 04:42:45 AM
- 712 Views
A lot of Christian doctrine states that people cannot know who is worthy of God and it's not up to
14/10/2010 05:41:19 AM
- 709 Views
I think he's reading a lot of things into that letter that aren't there.
14/10/2010 08:22:13 AM
- 661 Views