Bullying itself doesn't lead to suicide, yet it is very much a factor in suicide. What is the real cause of suicide is not pain in itself, but the thought that the pain is eternal and their is no hope, and you would do anything to make it stop.
In addition in my mind it isn't the conflict of being gay or being different that causes people to commit suicide. Nor is it the family conflict. A couple of those 5 people I listed were already out before committing suicide, yet the committed suicide even if they accepted the fact they were gay.
What causes people to commit suicide is that their lives are miserable, always has been, and the feel it always will be miserable. Bullying by itself isn't the cause of suicide, it is just something that escalates the situation, it is the kerosene thrown on the fire. There is a difference from having an awful life and having a one that is miserable, their is a difference from suffering pain and suffering misery. Some people here may not understand this but people that have suffered depression or have attempted suicide definitely know what I am talking about.
The fact that a couple of those boys have come out as gay and then years later committed suicide illustrates this point. To them they have already accepted they were gay, accepted they weren't going to change that fact, it was going to be forever. And if being gay means being in pain, and if gay is forever, then it follows to that depressed person mind that pain is forever, misery is forever, and there is no hope, no joy in the world.
And that is why Dan Savage project hopefully will make a difference. Life can get better, in addition you can change how you feel pain, pain doesn't have to equal misery. The fact you can change how you experience pain though will probably not work on changing a teenage mind though, it has to be experienced and it is a process that takes years.
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One of the reason that children rarely commit suicide when compared to adults is that their sense of death, personhood and time is completely different than a teenager, completely different than an adult.
In addition in my mind it isn't the conflict of being gay or being different that causes people to commit suicide. Nor is it the family conflict. A couple of those 5 people I listed were already out before committing suicide, yet the committed suicide even if they accepted the fact they were gay.
What causes people to commit suicide is that their lives are miserable, always has been, and the feel it always will be miserable. Bullying by itself isn't the cause of suicide, it is just something that escalates the situation, it is the kerosene thrown on the fire. There is a difference from having an awful life and having a one that is miserable, their is a difference from suffering pain and suffering misery. Some people here may not understand this but people that have suffered depression or have attempted suicide definitely know what I am talking about.
The fact that a couple of those boys have come out as gay and then years later committed suicide illustrates this point. To them they have already accepted they were gay, accepted they weren't going to change that fact, it was going to be forever. And if being gay means being in pain, and if gay is forever, then it follows to that depressed person mind that pain is forever, misery is forever, and there is no hope, no joy in the world.
And that is why Dan Savage project hopefully will make a difference. Life can get better, in addition you can change how you feel pain, pain doesn't have to equal misery. The fact you can change how you experience pain though will probably not work on changing a teenage mind though, it has to be experienced and it is a process that takes years.
---------------------------------
One of the reason that children rarely commit suicide when compared to adults is that their sense of death, personhood and time is completely different than a teenager, completely different than an adult.
This message last edited by Roland00 on 14/10/2010 at 06:06:23 PM
Love the Sinner
13/10/2010 04:07:28 PM
- 1178 Views
I have to think about that for a while.
13/10/2010 04:30:56 PM
- 710 Views
Suicide is significantly higher in young gay populations
13/10/2010 05:36:01 PM
- 650 Views
That is not what I think requires thought
13/10/2010 05:56:06 PM
- 656 Views
Nossy I ain't a mind reader, no matter how I try or how much I would do Jean Grey
13/10/2010 06:06:42 PM
- 782 Views
ok now show that it caused by what Christian beliefs *NM*
13/10/2010 06:50:32 PM
- 339 Views
I don't think it's the belief's themselves
14/10/2010 12:20:01 AM
- 694 Views
The churches who encourage people to bully gays should be condemned
14/10/2010 06:43:06 PM
- 686 Views
Ah, that Ghandi quote sure does get around. (which is funny, since he wasn't a Christian)
13/10/2010 05:07:42 PM
- 773 Views
I'm not sure that is true
13/10/2010 05:16:30 PM
- 656 Views
When's the last time you heard the quote attributed to anyone else?
13/10/2010 08:34:10 PM
- 632 Views
That many people don't know the correct origin doesn't change it though
13/10/2010 09:31:13 PM
- 783 Views
I think you are missing his point
13/10/2010 05:45:45 PM
- 737 Views
Question (and this one actually is asking for information )...
13/10/2010 06:42:17 PM
- 569 Views
I have seen gays be bullied before
13/10/2010 07:02:35 PM
- 763 Views
You just didn't listen to a thing I said *NM*
13/10/2010 07:09:29 PM
- 301 Views
why do you believe that? Because I don't agree with what you said?
13/10/2010 07:30:27 PM
- 682 Views
I said you aren't listening to a thing I said, for you didn't respond to anything that I wrote
13/10/2010 07:52:50 PM
- 662 Views
you are not interested in talking to anyone who doesn't agree with you
13/10/2010 09:01:03 PM
- 653 Views
I think there's truth in this as well.
13/10/2010 07:55:00 PM
- 707 Views
churches tend to refelect society as much if not more then they influence it
14/10/2010 07:15:35 PM
- 677 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point
13/10/2010 08:30:42 PM
- 740 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point
13/10/2010 09:55:52 PM
- 745 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point
14/10/2010 03:49:14 PM
- 731 Views
Actually you can very much debate whether homosexuality is a sin on a textual level
14/10/2010 05:49:22 PM
- 765 Views
Re: Actually you can very much debate whether homosexuality is a sin on a textual level
14/10/2010 08:52:24 PM
- 775 Views
Do you know greek or hebrew?
14/10/2010 08:57:32 PM
- 632 Views
I know a few words here and there, but not really. Do you?
14/10/2010 10:46:36 PM
- 759 Views
There's a good case on both sides (try Strong's Concordance, if you haven't, btw. )
15/10/2010 05:09:21 AM
- 1175 Views
You're kind of sidestepping a large part of his point
13/10/2010 05:51:53 PM
- 782 Views
so should Christians abandon other religious conviction to stop bullying?
13/10/2010 07:39:54 PM
- 682 Views
Many good points there; I think I'll let you play Defender of the Faith for a bit.
14/10/2010 08:50:23 AM
- 774 Views
I think he is jackass that does not believe other's can have apoint of view
13/10/2010 06:48:12 PM
- 674 Views
That's right, bullying would go away if we didn't have Christians to make moral judgements on things
13/10/2010 08:11:27 PM
- 764 Views
I mostly agree
13/10/2010 08:19:00 PM
- 831 Views
most of the bullies I remember from school were not known for their regular church attendance
14/10/2010 07:24:06 PM
- 645 Views
Let me see if I can understand where we agree, it is hard to do with all the Sarcasm
13/10/2010 08:48:38 PM
- 713 Views
Meh. He's not entirely incorrect. But not all Christians are anti-gay.
13/10/2010 08:43:04 PM
- 737 Views
It is better to be a Tolkein than a Token
13/10/2010 08:52:09 PM
- 709 Views
If I were a Tolkien liberal Christian, wouldn't that make me an American Roman Catholic? *NM*
13/10/2010 09:18:57 PM
- 278 Views
Interesting
13/10/2010 08:56:46 PM
- 996 Views
Okay my response now
14/10/2010 06:04:02 PM
- 729 Views
His first three sentences were totally unecessary. The rest is conspiracy-laden nonsense.
14/10/2010 12:37:06 AM
- 759 Views
Re:
14/10/2010 03:06:36 AM
- 749 Views
I think Chora has dibs on that bumper sticker.
14/10/2010 09:35:02 AM
- 812 Views
Re:
14/10/2010 11:50:04 PM
- 754 Views
It's nothing at all like cultural relativism.
15/10/2010 01:16:10 AM
- 659 Views
I don't think there is any question...
14/10/2010 04:42:45 AM
- 709 Views
A lot of Christian doctrine states that people cannot know who is worthy of God and it's not up to
14/10/2010 05:41:19 AM
- 708 Views
I think he's reading a lot of things into that letter that aren't there.
14/10/2010 08:22:13 AM
- 659 Views