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Re: I think you are missing his point Zalis Send a noteboard - 14/10/2010 03:49:14 PM

It's tricky, because so many Gays embrace their... uh, Gay-ness, if you will, as a large part of their identity. For better or worse, they're promoting that difference and making it a prominent part of who they are. I realize some of this is in defiance of the norm, but it still goes to show that part of the "difference" is self-imposed.

Well they have a disagreement with you on the nature of sin. Gays are either A) Not Christian or B) Christian. They group of gays that fall under the part B) Christian have a fundamental disagreement with you on the nature of sin. They believe that being gay is an inherent part of their being, it was the way that God made them, since God made them that way they should not struggle against their nature. Instead they should embrace their nature, embrace their humanity and their own dignity, and through that dignity find a way to establish a relationship with God, a divine being that is infinite. It is through their own humanity that they can learn how to establish a relationship with something beyond themselves.

Many theologians argue that this is one reason that God made himself both man and God with his son Jesus Christ. It is through his son that we learn how to establish a relationship with the son and the father, it is through his son that we learn on the proper way to live.

I would agree, yet we draw contrasting views from this fact. As for those you mention, lots of people ignore scripture to make themselves feel better. It's no fun to feel guilty, so why not change one's view of the rules? Unlike Old Testament prohibitions that no longer apply, since we're not Israel living under a Theocracy, Homosexuality is mentioned as sin consistently in both the OT and NT.

Having a honest disagreement on how one views himself should not be a reason to devolve into an US vs Them arrangement. An honest disagreement on a world view doesn't even escalate to the area of "enemy" and yet Jesus said we should love our enemies. The world that Jesus lived in had hundreds of groups who had different world views of God, some were Roman, some were Jews, some were the other religions of the Mediterranean. Yet Jesus taught cooperation with all. His most potent parables were even about different branches of Judaism bickering over trivial details yet missing the bigger picture.

Jesus said we should love our enemies, but He also threw the money-changers out of the Temple when they corrupted it with shady dealings. He is not the pale, ever-gentle, castrated figure we see in the stained-glass windows of lifeless churches. He spoke the truth with abandon, and it got him killed. He also told the woman caught in adultery to "Go and sin no more." He was forgiving, but never made excuses for sin.

Yes, He may have been harsh on the legalistic Scribes & Pharisees. They were very careful to live by the letter of the laws, while even making up plenty of their own. He called them "white-washed tombs," which is a pretty grim illustration. Jesus raised the spiritual standards even higher, however, by saying that a man lusting in his heart was already guilty of adultery.

If the Pharisees' rules were demanding, Jesus' standards were humanly impossible. That's why the law never saves anybody. Only through Christ's work on the cross are we free to be filled with the Holy Spirit and really live Christ's example. Anyway, I digress. Jesus was hard on sin, spoke the truth and got murdered for it. (His secret trial wasn't legal, etc.)

Yes we should do whatever we can to stop bullying. But the reasons of a higher rate of suicide with Gays are showing we obviously aren't doing enough. When a rate of something is over 100% compared to the general population than that shows either two things:
1) There is something fundamentally different about the two populations (this is possible)
2) That the environment treats the two populations differently (which is what I find far more likely based on my experiences).

Again, it doesn't mean the bullying has anything to do with actual Christianity. Mean kids bully, and they don't tend to do it while pontificating on points of scripture. I'm sure some of what he says does happen, but his broad generalizations are not accurate.

The sword might be grateful to the forge fire, but never fond of it.

This message last edited by Zalis on 14/10/2010 at 03:53:50 PM

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Love the Sinner Roland00 - 13/10/2010 04:07:28 PM 1181 Views

I have to think about that for a while. nossy - 13/10/2010 04:30:56 PM 714 Views

Suicide is significantly higher in young gay populations Roland00 - 13/10/2010 05:36:01 PM 653 Views

That is not what I think requires thought nossy - 13/10/2010 05:56:06 PM 657 Views

Nossy I ain't a mind reader, no matter how I try

or how much I would do Jean Grey Roland00 - 13/10/2010 06:06:42 PM 787 Views

for ze record nossy - 14/10/2010 02:54:07 AM 677 Views

ok now show that it caused by what Christian beliefs *NM* random thoughts - 13/10/2010 06:50:32 PM 341 Views

I don't think it's the belief's themselves LadyLorraine - 14/10/2010 12:20:01 AM 696 Views

The churches who encourage people to bully gays should be condemned random thoughts - 14/10/2010 06:43:06 PM 688 Views

Re: I have to think about that for a while. Rebekah - 13/10/2010 06:29:09 PM 681 Views

He was very frank but completely founded Fox and Ravens - 13/10/2010 04:34:46 PM 750 Views

Ah, that Ghandi quote sure does get around. (which is funny, since he wasn't a Christian)

Zalis - 13/10/2010 05:07:42 PM 774 Views

I'm not sure that is true snoopcester - 13/10/2010 05:16:30 PM 659 Views

When's the last time you heard the quote attributed to anyone else?

Zalis - 13/10/2010 08:34:10 PM 634 Views

That many people don't know the correct origin doesn't change it though snoopcester - 13/10/2010 09:31:13 PM 785 Views

I think you are missing his point Roland00 - 13/10/2010 05:45:45 PM 739 Views

Question (and this one actually is asking for information

)... Legolas - 13/10/2010 06:42:17 PM 573 Views

Yes and no Roland00 - 13/10/2010 06:53:26 PM 833 Views

Okay, fair enough. *NM* Legolas - 13/10/2010 07:48:21 PM 303 Views

I would think... damookster - 14/10/2010 04:35:31 AM 729 Views

I have seen gays be bullied before random thoughts - 13/10/2010 07:02:35 PM 766 Views

You just didn't listen to a thing I said *NM* Roland00 - 13/10/2010 07:09:29 PM 301 Views

why do you believe that? Because I don't agree with what you said? random thoughts - 13/10/2010 07:30:27 PM 685 Views

I said you aren't listening to a thing I said, for you didn't respond to anything that I wrote Roland00 - 13/10/2010 07:52:50 PM 667 Views

you are not interested in talking to anyone who doesn't agree with you random thoughts - 13/10/2010 09:01:03 PM 656 Views

I think there's truth in this as well. Legolas - 13/10/2010 07:55:00 PM 710 Views

churches tend to refelect society as much if not more then they influence it random thoughts - 14/10/2010 07:15:35 PM 681 Views

Re: I think you are missing his point Zalis - 13/10/2010 08:30:42 PM 741 Views

Re: I think you are missing his point Roland00 - 13/10/2010 09:55:52 PM 748 Views

Re: I think you are missing his point Zalis - 14/10/2010 03:49:14 PM 734 Views

Actually you can very much debate whether homosexuality is a sin on a textual level Roland00 - 14/10/2010 05:49:22 PM 766 Views

Re: Actually you can very much debate whether homosexuality is a sin on a textual level Zalis - 14/10/2010 08:52:24 PM 775 Views

Do you know greek or hebrew? Roland00 - 14/10/2010 08:57:32 PM 634 Views

I know a few words here and there, but not really. Do you? Zalis - 14/10/2010 10:46:36 PM 760 Views

There's a good case on both sides (try Strong's Concordance, if you haven't, btw. ) Joel - 15/10/2010 05:09:21 AM 1178 Views

I don't look to Christianity for my answers Roland00 - 15/10/2010 03:02:16 PM 739 Views

Re: I don't look to Christianity for my answers Zalis - 15/10/2010 04:27:25 PM 778 Views

You're kind of sidestepping a large part of his point Rowland - 13/10/2010 05:51:53 PM 783 Views

so should Christians abandon other religious conviction to stop bullying? random thoughts - 13/10/2010 07:39:54 PM 684 Views

Re: You're kind of sidestepping a large part of his point Zalis - 13/10/2010 08:23:07 PM 705 Views

That seems a little myopic to me. Joel - 14/10/2010 09:16:27 AM 696 Views

Many good points there; I think I'll let you play Defender of the Faith for a bit.

Joel - 14/10/2010 08:50:23 AM 778 Views

I think he is jackass that does not believe other's can have apoint of view random thoughts - 13/10/2010 06:48:12 PM 677 Views

That's right, bullying would go away if we didn't have Christians to make moral judgements on things ßelals Girl - 13/10/2010 08:11:27 PM 767 Views

I mostly agree ironclad - 13/10/2010 08:19:00 PM 834 Views

most of the bullies I remember from school were not known for their regular church attendance random thoughts - 14/10/2010 07:24:06 PM 646 Views

I thought I pretty much agreed with you on that point ironclad - 14/10/2010 07:44:07 PM 707 Views

Let me see if I can understand where we agree, it is hard to do with all the Sarcasm

Roland00 - 13/10/2010 08:48:38 PM 718 Views

Meh. He's not entirely incorrect. But not all Christians are anti-gay. Ghavrel - 13/10/2010 08:43:04 PM 739 Views

It is better to be a Tolkein than a Token

Roland00 - 13/10/2010 08:52:09 PM 712 Views

If I were a Tolkien liberal Christian, wouldn't that make me an American Roman Catholic?

*NM* Ghavrel - 13/10/2010 09:18:57 PM 279 Views

Interesting scalius - 13/10/2010 08:56:46 PM 999 Views

Sometime rants do work and change people's mind Roland00 - 13/10/2010 09:23:39 PM 594 Views

and sometoimes they are just rants *NM* random thoughts - 13/10/2010 10:01:55 PM 281 Views

Okay my response now Roland00 - 14/10/2010 06:04:02 PM 734 Views

His first three sentences were totally unecessary. The rest is conspiracy-laden nonsense. everynametaken - 14/10/2010 12:37:06 AM 763 Views

He becomes what he hates. eucatastrophe - 14/10/2010 02:40:19 AM 860 Views

Good stuff. *NM* Aeryn - 14/10/2010 02:56:44 AM 303 Views

Re: Gaps - 14/10/2010 03:06:36 AM 752 Views

I think Chora has dibs on that bumper sticker. Joel - 14/10/2010 09:35:02 AM 816 Views

Re: Gaps - 14/10/2010 11:50:04 PM 760 Views

It's nothing at all like cultural relativism. Joel - 15/10/2010 01:16:10 AM 661 Views

Re: It's nothing at all like cultural relativism. Gaps - 16/10/2010 05:20:56 AM 776 Views

Re: It's nothing at all like cultural relativism. Joel - 16/10/2010 07:16:21 AM 690 Views

I don't think there is any question... damookster - 14/10/2010 04:42:45 AM 712 Views

If I may quibble: Ghavrel - 14/10/2010 05:22:22 AM 539 Views

A lot of Christian doctrine states that people cannot know who is worthy of God and it's not up to Helene - 14/10/2010 05:41:19 AM 709 Views

And a lot of Christians who should know better forget this. Joel - 14/10/2010 10:16:51 AM 760 Views

He's bullying Christians Helene - 14/10/2010 04:47:13 AM 691 Views

I agree BlackAdder - 14/10/2010 04:09:23 PM 788 Views

I think he's reading a lot of things into that letter that aren't there. Joel - 14/10/2010 08:22:13 AM 661 Views

Two seperate things are mingled here Bramhodoulos - 14/10/2010 09:50:42 AM 893 Views

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<quote id="160422">
<quote id="160136"><quote>It's tricky, because so many Gays embrace their... uh, Gay-ness, if you will, as a large part of their identity.  For better or worse, they're promoting that difference and making it a prominent part of who they are.  I realize some of this is in defiance of the norm, but it still goes to show that part of the "difference" is self-imposed.</quote>
Well they have a disagreement with you on the nature of sin.  Gays are either A) Not Christian or B) Christian.  They group of gays that fall under the part B) Christian have a fundamental disagreement with you on the nature of sin.  They believe that being gay is an inherent part of their being, it was the way that God made them, since God made them that way they should not struggle against their nature.  Instead they should embrace their nature, embrace their humanity and their own dignity, and through that dignity find a way to establish a relationship with God, a divine being that is infinite.  It is through their own humanity that they can learn how to establish a relationship with something beyond themselves.</quote>
<quote>Many theologians argue that this is one reason that God made himself both man and God with his son Jesus Christ.  It is through his son that we learn how to establish a relationship with the son and the father, it is through his son that we learn on the proper way to live.</quote>

I would agree, yet we draw contrasting views from this fact.  As for those you mention, lots of people ignore scripture to make themselves feel better.  It's no fun to feel guilty, so why not change one's view of the rules?  Unlike Old Testament prohibitions that no longer apply, since we're not Israel living under a Theocracy, Homosexuality is mentioned as sin consistently in both the OT and NT.

<quote>Having a honest disagreement on how one views himself should not be a reason to devolve into an US vs Them arrangement.  An honest disagreement on a world view doesn't even escalate to the area of "enemy" and yet Jesus said we should love our enemies.  The world that Jesus lived in had hundreds of groups who had different world views of God, some were Roman, some were Jews, some were the other religions of the Mediterranean.  Yet Jesus taught cooperation with all.  His most potent parables were even about different branches of Judaism bickering over trivial details yet missing the bigger picture.</quote>

Yes, He may have been harsh on the legalistic Scribes & Pharisees.  They were very careful to live by the letter of the laws, while even making up plenty of their own.  He called them "white-washed tombs," which is a pretty grim illustration.  Jesus raised the spiritual standards even higher, however, by saying that a man lusting in his heart was already guilty of adultery.

If the Pharisees' rules were demanding, Jesus' standards were humanly impossible.  That's why the law never saves anybody.  Only through Christ's work on the cross are we free to be filled with the Holy Spirit and really live Christ's example.  Anyway, I digress.  Jesus was hard on sin, spoke the truth and got murdered for it.  (His secret trial wasn't legal, etc.)

<quote>Yes we should do whatever we can to stop bullying.  But the reasons of a higher rate of suicide with Gays are showing we obviously aren't doing enough.  When a rate of something is over 100% compared to the general population than that shows either two things:
1)  There is something fundamentally different about the two populations (this is possible)
2)  That the environment treats the two populations differently (which is what I find far more likely based on my experiences).</quote>

Again, it doesn't mean the bullying has anything to do with actual Christianity.  Mean kids bully, and they don't tend to do it while pontificating on points of scripture.  I'm sure some of what he says <i>does</i> happen, but his broad generalizations are not accurate.
</quote>

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