Ah, that Ghandi quote sure does get around. (which is funny, since he wasn't a Christian) 
- Edit 2
- Edit 2Before modification by Zalis at 13/10/2010 05:14:24 PM
Dan Savage
I'm sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.
No, wait. I'm not. Gay kids are dying. So let's try to keep things in perspective: Fuck your feelings.
I'm sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.
No, wait. I'm not. Gay kids are dying. So let's try to keep things in perspective: Fuck your feelings.
Intentionally inflammatory approach. Not a great way to change anyone's mind. If anything, it makes them dig their heels in.
A question: Do you "support" atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All are legal, all go against Christian and/or traditional ideas about marriage, and yet there's no "Christian" movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or people divorcing and remarrying. Why the hell not?
Personally, as a Christian, I do note vote *against* Gay marriage. I wouldn't for *for* it either, though. I view homosexuality as the Bible does, as sin. I also happen to see that the Bible points out *a lot* of things as sin, like lying and adultery, and that there is little value to singling out Gay people as being some kind of "super" sinners. We've all fallen short and, while homosexuality has a much bigger "gross" factor to the rest of us, it doesn't make it legitimate grounds for demonizing folk.
While there are things that are very specifically labeled as sin, I'm not under the delusion that we're living in a theocracy. The law cannot legislate change on a man's heart.
Sorry, L.R., but so long as you support the denial of marriage rights to same-sex couples, it's clear that you do believe that some people—straight people—are "better or more worthy" than others.
And—sorry—but you are partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable LGBT children. The kids of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or in your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. And while you can only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, your children have the option of attacking actual gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.
And—sorry—but you are partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable LGBT children. The kids of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or in your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. And while you can only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, your children have the option of attacking actual gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.
See my above paragraph.
Real gay and lesbian children. Not political abstractions, not "sinners." Gay and lesbian children.
He's speaking the wrong language here. If he's talking to Christians, he has to realize that the Bible describes all of humanity as sinners. We can't escape it, short of faith in Christ and His work on the cross, and that's where the difference lies. A guy sleeping with his girlfriend is ignoring this just as much as two gays or lesbians. Our society has muddied this in somehow making the former more acceptable. Agree with the moral view or not, but we Christians have little business making the false distinction between the two. (getting married doesn't "fix" it, Biblically, since it's still viewed as a sin)
Try to keep up: The dehumanizing bigotries that fall from the lips of "faithful Christians," and the lies about us that vomit out from the pulpits of churches that "faithful Christians" drag their kids to on Sundays, give your children license to verbally abuse, humiliate, and condemn the gay children they encounter at school. And many of your children—having listened to Mom and Dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry—feel justified in physically abusing the LGBT children they encounter in their schools. You don't have to explicitly "encourage [your] children to mock, hurt, or intimidate" queer kids. Your encouragement—along with your hatred and fear—is implicit. It's here, it's clear, and we're seeing the fruits of it: dead children.
Aside from what I've already said... Bullying is a human flaw - not an explicitly Christian one. It also comes from a variety of parental worldviews, from what I've seen. That aside, he's assuming that children of Christian parents bully. I didn't, FWIW.
Oh, and those same dehumanizing bigotries that fill your straight children with hate? They fill your gay children with suicidal despair. And you have the nerve to ask me to be more careful with my words?
Did that hurt to hear? Good. But it couldn't have hurt nearly as much as what was said and done to Asher Brown and Justin Aaberg and Billy Lucas and Cody Barker and Seth Walsh—day in, day out for years—at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God, but in the image of the hateful and false "followers of Christ" they call Mom and Dad.
Did that hurt to hear? Good. But it couldn't have hurt nearly as much as what was said and done to Asher Brown and Justin Aaberg and Billy Lucas and Cody Barker and Seth Walsh—day in, day out for years—at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God, but in the image of the hateful and false "followers of Christ" they call Mom and Dad.
I get his point, but his tone and conclusions do little more than shock and point to how much it must've sucked to reach the point of suicide. Maybe I'm in an odd spot, though, because I'm not quite where he's aiming at.
He's also assuming that calling Homosexuality as sin, according to the Bible as it does say, is dehumanizing bigotry. The issue here is, again, not that this one thing is called a sin. The issue is that people have elevated it and demonized those identifying with it. Some do tend to parade this fact around, and forcing others to accept it as normal is what gets them reactions. Not all reactions are as grounded as others, so you get people shooting from the hip. Reacting with the human "yuck" factor, rather than a solely Biblical one. (where it's a broader but more even stance as sin, agree with or not)