Ah, that Ghandi quote sure does get around. (which is funny, since he wasn't a Christian)
Zalis Send a noteboard - 13/10/2010 05:07:42 PM
Dan Savage
I'm sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.
No, wait. I'm not. Gay kids are dying. So let's try to keep things in perspective: Fuck your feelings.
I'm sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.
No, wait. I'm not. Gay kids are dying. So let's try to keep things in perspective: Fuck your feelings.
Intentionally inflammatory approach. Not a great way to change anyone's mind. If anything, it makes them dig their heels in.
A question: Do you "support" atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All are legal, all go against Christian and/or traditional ideas about marriage, and yet there's no "Christian" movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or people divorcing and remarrying. Why the hell not?
Personally, as a Christian, I do note vote *against* Gay marriage. I wouldn't for *for* it either, though. I view homosexuality as the Bible does, as sin. I also happen to see that the Bible points out *a lot* of things as sin, like lying and adultery, and that there is little value to singling out Gay people as being some kind of "super" sinners. We've all fallen short and, while homosexuality has a much bigger "gross" factor to the rest of us, it doesn't make it legitimate grounds for demonizing folk.
While there are things that are very specifically labeled as sin, I'm not under the delusion that we're living in a theocracy. The law cannot legislate change on a man's heart.
Sorry, L.R., but so long as you support the denial of marriage rights to same-sex couples, it's clear that you do believe that some people—straight people—are "better or more worthy" than others.
And—sorry—but you are partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable LGBT children. The kids of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or in your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. And while you can only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, your children have the option of attacking actual gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.
And—sorry—but you are partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable LGBT children. The kids of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or in your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. And while you can only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, your children have the option of attacking actual gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.
See my above paragraph.
Real gay and lesbian children. Not political abstractions, not "sinners." Gay and lesbian children.
He's speaking the wrong language here. If he's talking to Christians, he has to realize that the Bible describes all of humanity as sinners. We can't escape it, short of faith in Christ and His work on the cross, and that's where the difference lies. A guy sleeping with his girlfriend is ignoring this just as much as two gays or lesbians. Our society has muddied this in somehow making the former more acceptable. Agree with the moral view or not, but we Christians have little business making the false distinction between the two. (getting married doesn't "fix" it, Biblically, since it's still viewed as a sin)
Try to keep up: The dehumanizing bigotries that fall from the lips of "faithful Christians," and the lies about us that vomit out from the pulpits of churches that "faithful Christians" drag their kids to on Sundays, give your children license to verbally abuse, humiliate, and condemn the gay children they encounter at school. And many of your children—having listened to Mom and Dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry—feel justified in physically abusing the LGBT children they encounter in their schools. You don't have to explicitly "encourage [your] children to mock, hurt, or intimidate" queer kids. Your encouragement—along with your hatred and fear—is implicit. It's here, it's clear, and we're seeing the fruits of it: dead children.
Aside from what I've already said... Bullying is a human flaw - not an explicitly Christian one. It also comes from a variety of parental worldviews, from what I've seen. That aside, he's assuming that children of Christian parents bully. I didn't, FWIW.
Oh, and those same dehumanizing bigotries that fill your straight children with hate? They fill your gay children with suicidal despair. And you have the nerve to ask me to be more careful with my words?
Did that hurt to hear? Good. But it couldn't have hurt nearly as much as what was said and done to Asher Brown and Justin Aaberg and Billy Lucas and Cody Barker and Seth Walsh—day in, day out for years—at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God, but in the image of the hateful and false "followers of Christ" they call Mom and Dad.
Did that hurt to hear? Good. But it couldn't have hurt nearly as much as what was said and done to Asher Brown and Justin Aaberg and Billy Lucas and Cody Barker and Seth Walsh—day in, day out for years—at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God, but in the image of the hateful and false "followers of Christ" they call Mom and Dad.
I get his point, but his tone and conclusions do little more than shock and point to how much it must've sucked to reach the point of suicide. Maybe I'm in an odd spot, though, because I'm not quite where he's aiming at.
He's also assuming that calling Homosexuality as sin, according to the Bible as it does say, is dehumanizing bigotry. The issue here is, again, not that this one thing is called a sin. The issue is that people have elevated it and demonized those identifying with it. Some do tend to parade this fact around, and forcing others to accept it as normal is what gets them reactions. Not all reactions are as grounded as others, so you get people shooting from the hip. Reacting with the human "yuck" factor, rather than a solely Biblical one. (where it's a broader but more even stance as sin, agree with or not)
Yes, I have a couple Gay friends. No, I don't harass them. I also don't backpedal on what the Bible says, if asked or it comes up, or the fact that I believe it. Forcing something as right down someone's throat goes both ways, ya know?
The sword might be grateful to the forge fire, but never fond of it.
This message last edited by Zalis on 13/10/2010 at 05:14:50 PM
Love the Sinner
13/10/2010 04:07:28 PM
- 1181 Views
I have to think about that for a while.
13/10/2010 04:30:56 PM
- 714 Views
Suicide is significantly higher in young gay populations
13/10/2010 05:36:01 PM
- 653 Views
That is not what I think requires thought
13/10/2010 05:56:06 PM
- 657 Views
Nossy I ain't a mind reader, no matter how I try or how much I would do Jean Grey
13/10/2010 06:06:42 PM
- 786 Views
ok now show that it caused by what Christian beliefs *NM*
13/10/2010 06:50:32 PM
- 340 Views
I don't think it's the belief's themselves
14/10/2010 12:20:01 AM
- 696 Views
The churches who encourage people to bully gays should be condemned
14/10/2010 06:43:06 PM
- 688 Views
Ah, that Ghandi quote sure does get around. (which is funny, since he wasn't a Christian)
13/10/2010 05:07:42 PM
- 774 Views
I'm not sure that is true
13/10/2010 05:16:30 PM
- 658 Views
When's the last time you heard the quote attributed to anyone else?
13/10/2010 08:34:10 PM
- 633 Views
That many people don't know the correct origin doesn't change it though
13/10/2010 09:31:13 PM
- 785 Views
I think you are missing his point
13/10/2010 05:45:45 PM
- 739 Views
Question (and this one actually is asking for information )...
13/10/2010 06:42:17 PM
- 573 Views
I have seen gays be bullied before
13/10/2010 07:02:35 PM
- 765 Views
You just didn't listen to a thing I said *NM*
13/10/2010 07:09:29 PM
- 301 Views
why do you believe that? Because I don't agree with what you said?
13/10/2010 07:30:27 PM
- 685 Views
I said you aren't listening to a thing I said, for you didn't respond to anything that I wrote
13/10/2010 07:52:50 PM
- 666 Views
you are not interested in talking to anyone who doesn't agree with you
13/10/2010 09:01:03 PM
- 656 Views
I think there's truth in this as well.
13/10/2010 07:55:00 PM
- 709 Views
churches tend to refelect society as much if not more then they influence it
14/10/2010 07:15:35 PM
- 680 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point
13/10/2010 08:30:42 PM
- 741 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point
13/10/2010 09:55:52 PM
- 747 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point
14/10/2010 03:49:14 PM
- 733 Views
Actually you can very much debate whether homosexuality is a sin on a textual level
14/10/2010 05:49:22 PM
- 766 Views
Re: Actually you can very much debate whether homosexuality is a sin on a textual level
14/10/2010 08:52:24 PM
- 775 Views
Do you know greek or hebrew?
14/10/2010 08:57:32 PM
- 633 Views
I know a few words here and there, but not really. Do you?
14/10/2010 10:46:36 PM
- 760 Views
There's a good case on both sides (try Strong's Concordance, if you haven't, btw. )
15/10/2010 05:09:21 AM
- 1178 Views
You're kind of sidestepping a large part of his point
13/10/2010 05:51:53 PM
- 783 Views
so should Christians abandon other religious conviction to stop bullying?
13/10/2010 07:39:54 PM
- 684 Views
Many good points there; I think I'll let you play Defender of the Faith for a bit.
14/10/2010 08:50:23 AM
- 777 Views
I think he is jackass that does not believe other's can have apoint of view
13/10/2010 06:48:12 PM
- 677 Views
That's right, bullying would go away if we didn't have Christians to make moral judgements on things
13/10/2010 08:11:27 PM
- 767 Views
I mostly agree
13/10/2010 08:19:00 PM
- 833 Views
most of the bullies I remember from school were not known for their regular church attendance
14/10/2010 07:24:06 PM
- 646 Views
Let me see if I can understand where we agree, it is hard to do with all the Sarcasm
13/10/2010 08:48:38 PM
- 718 Views
Meh. He's not entirely incorrect. But not all Christians are anti-gay.
13/10/2010 08:43:04 PM
- 739 Views
It is better to be a Tolkein than a Token
13/10/2010 08:52:09 PM
- 711 Views
If I were a Tolkien liberal Christian, wouldn't that make me an American Roman Catholic? *NM*
13/10/2010 09:18:57 PM
- 279 Views
Interesting
13/10/2010 08:56:46 PM
- 999 Views
His first three sentences were totally unecessary. The rest is conspiracy-laden nonsense.
14/10/2010 12:37:06 AM
- 763 Views
Re:
14/10/2010 03:06:36 AM
- 751 Views
I think Chora has dibs on that bumper sticker.
14/10/2010 09:35:02 AM
- 815 Views
Re:
14/10/2010 11:50:04 PM
- 759 Views
It's nothing at all like cultural relativism.
15/10/2010 01:16:10 AM
- 660 Views
I don't think there is any question...
14/10/2010 04:42:45 AM
- 711 Views
A lot of Christian doctrine states that people cannot know who is worthy of God and it's not up to
14/10/2010 05:41:19 AM
- 709 Views
I think he's reading a lot of things into that letter that aren't there.
14/10/2010 08:22:13 AM
- 661 Views