This is a classic example of me inadvertently coming to complete agreement with the Vatican.
Joel Send a noteboard - 07/09/2010 12:05:52 PM
The current pope (Benedict XIV formerly known as Cardinal Ratzinger) when he still was a cardinal pretty much wrote the "book" on what the Catholic church considers religious "doctrine"/"policy" when it comes to homosexuality.
The document is called "Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons" (written 1985 released 1986).
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
Now this letter references (as a source of logic) the 1975 Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics which deals with many things that the Church considers sins relating to sex
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19751229_persona-humana_en.html
Now in the document it recognizes that Homosexuality is probably innate, and it recognizes a difference between being homosexual (aka having homosexual desires) and actively "sinning" (having homosexual relations.) If being a homosexual is innate you can't be excommunicated. Furthermore having homosexual desires itself is not sinful since it is innate, homosexual desires are "disordered" since it "tempts" you to sin, the actual acting on these desires is sinful. Being "disordered" is not the same as sinful, being "disordered" means more likely to sin.
The catholic church also (as doctrine, reality is sometimes a different matter) encourages love and respect for all homosexual people. Furthermore it is very much against persecution and violence of homosexual people. Finally in theory (but sometimes not in reality) the Catholic Church is against the criminalization of homosexuality.
Also if you have had homosexual feelings in the last 3 years, you are "supposed" to enter seminary and thus won't be able to become a priest, "in theory"
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On another note, while this is a taboo subject, Benedict XIV (Ratzinger) is very much a closeted gay man. Now I ain't saying he is having sex, I very much believe he is a chaste man, but that doesn't change the fact he is probably a very gay man who is in the closet.
The document is called "Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons" (written 1985 released 1986).
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
Now this letter references (as a source of logic) the 1975 Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics which deals with many things that the Church considers sins relating to sex
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19751229_persona-humana_en.html
Now in the document it recognizes that Homosexuality is probably innate, and it recognizes a difference between being homosexual (aka having homosexual desires) and actively "sinning" (having homosexual relations.) If being a homosexual is innate you can't be excommunicated. Furthermore having homosexual desires itself is not sinful since it is innate, homosexual desires are "disordered" since it "tempts" you to sin, the actual acting on these desires is sinful. Being "disordered" is not the same as sinful, being "disordered" means more likely to sin.
The catholic church also (as doctrine, reality is sometimes a different matter) encourages love and respect for all homosexual people. Furthermore it is very much against persecution and violence of homosexual people. Finally in theory (but sometimes not in reality) the Catholic Church is against the criminalization of homosexuality.
Also if you have had homosexual feelings in the last 3 years, you are "supposed" to enter seminary and thus won't be able to become a priest, "in theory"
------------------------------------------------
On another note, while this is a taboo subject, Benedict XIV (Ratzinger) is very much a closeted gay man. Now I ain't saying he is having sex, I very much believe he is a chaste man, but that doesn't change the fact he is probably a very gay man who is in the closet.
If only it were always so easy and simple (perhaps if they didn't so demonize sexuality of any kind among the priesthood they wouldn't get so many devils for priests. ) I mean, really, it's not like innate temptation to sin is a new concept in Christianity; Christian doctrine, of almost every denomination, teaches that it's present in all of us: You recognize it, you acknowledge it, you repent the occasions when you succumb to it, asking Gods forgiveness and Grace, and you resist temptation in Christ. The particular form that takes is largely irrelevant. The miser forever tempted to steal and hoard is in the same boat: The temptation is constant, but it doesn't become sin until we succumb to it. Christ was tempted 40 days in the wilderness--but He never sinned. Note this more of an "I agree" than anything else. However....
I DO have a couple questions:
1) Why are you so certain Pope Benedict is a closeted homosexual? I doubt it would be the first time, mind; the Medieval Vatican is rather notorious for blithely ignoring any and all of the prohibitions it placed on both the clergy and the laity (hence Bishops who sought as assiduously as any other noble to protect their CHILDRENS welfare) it's just that, to borrow a line from the agnostics, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
2) Marriage is about raising rather than having children? What about childless couples, hetero or otherwise? Are their marriages somehow lesser? Because that seems counter to what you mean to advocate with the statements. And isn't raising children somewhat predicated on having children? I'm not of the ilk that says a child is better off going from diapers to diploma in an orphanage or with an abusive parent than with the awful gays who might HURT them rather than just regularly beating and brainwashing them like DECENT folk, but this goes to the core of why I honestly believe, with no malice, that same sex couples were not what God intended for humanity: If it were, IMHO, homosexual couples could bear children naturally. It's just one of many examples of how I think members of the opposite sex complement each other in ways that members of the same sex can't. I don't see the difference between male and female as a simple matter of hormones, and firmly believe that most, if not all, women will bring things to the table in a relationship that another man couldn't (and vice versa. )
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Gay Marriage and Religious Institutions
04/09/2010 11:36:14 PM
- 1368 Views
Religion 100% aside, it's"okay" because she breached her contract
05/09/2010 12:18:36 AM
- 956 Views
Well, my tripes with it are a little in line with that
05/09/2010 01:26:56 AM
- 971 Views
Re: Well, my tripes with it are a little in line with that
05/09/2010 01:41:34 AM
- 913 Views
goodness knows that the military sign their rights away ALL THE TIME
05/09/2010 02:44:58 AM
- 774 Views
There is a difference in the degree of the transgressions and the public nature of them as well.
05/09/2010 02:30:06 AM
- 872 Views
agreed. There may be some hypocrisy in the church employment practices...
05/09/2010 02:49:44 AM
- 832 Views
Re: There is a difference in the degree of the transgressions and the public nature of them as well.
09/09/2010 06:43:23 AM
- 1150 Views
She chose to work for a Catholic institution.
05/09/2010 05:54:23 PM
- 778 Views
what a stupid thing to say
05/09/2010 07:38:16 PM
- 918 Views
Um... no? One can be excommunicated for any number of things. *NM*
05/09/2010 08:22:29 PM
- 313 Views
yeah back in the time when there was no electricity *NM*
05/09/2010 08:25:17 PM
- 355 Views
...um, no. I'm not sure where you're getting that from, but it's completely wrong.
06/09/2010 01:06:49 AM
- 820 Views
You can't be excommunicated for being gay
06/09/2010 02:51:21 AM
- 903 Views
This is a classic example of me inadvertently coming to complete agreement with the Vatican.
07/09/2010 12:05:52 PM
- 877 Views
Wow! What an underwhelming argument.
06/09/2010 04:24:32 AM
- 881 Views
Remember that NC Baptist church kicking out non-Bush supporters in '04?
07/09/2010 11:46:18 AM
- 960 Views
Actually, the Pope has the right to say "sorry, you're not a Catholic anymore".
05/09/2010 08:43:34 PM
- 1025 Views
See above post
06/09/2010 02:52:25 AM
- 761 Views
What?
06/09/2010 02:56:59 AM
- 772 Views
Nope
06/09/2010 03:03:48 AM
- 802 Views
Inaction, like, for example, not saving lives where you could have is also grounds for expulsion.
06/09/2010 06:35:31 PM
- 681 Views
Hmm, but I think that's a different type of inaction than the kind he's discussing
06/09/2010 08:02:50 PM
- 999 Views
I never infered that that was the case.
06/09/2010 08:24:30 PM
- 698 Views
mmm, but your example isn't inaction ALONE
06/09/2010 08:46:56 PM
- 801 Views
Hmm interesting question.
06/09/2010 10:35:19 PM
- 884 Views
is excommunication about "use" though?
06/09/2010 10:36:55 PM
- 919 Views
Well thank god you aren't the pope
07/09/2010 03:29:00 AM
- 882 Views
Dismas is a Saint?
07/09/2010 12:08:45 PM
- 901 Views
You are purposefully trying to split hairs
07/09/2010 03:15:08 AM
- 806 Views
does excommunication mean you are no longer Catholic?
06/09/2010 08:52:58 PM
- 697 Views
i'm pretty sure we have this conversation on a weekly basis. *NM*
06/09/2010 09:05:33 PM
- 333 Views
Yeah.
06/09/2010 10:34:10 PM
- 677 Views
is being Catholic a belief system or a club?
06/09/2010 11:03:00 PM
- 787 Views
It's both.
07/09/2010 05:54:13 AM
- 883 Views
I'm unsure about that. It doesn't invalidate baptism.
07/09/2010 08:23:33 AM
- 761 Views
I thought conformation is what made you a member of the church *NM*
07/09/2010 06:42:36 PM
- 303 Views
You're correct.
08/09/2010 02:33:45 AM
- 796 Views
Either way, it's a sacramental character, and so my point stands. You can't erase the seal of either *NM*
08/09/2010 04:18:12 AM
- 309 Views
My god people that cheat or divorce shouldn't be Catholic
06/09/2010 02:26:23 AM
- 696 Views