We're having this conversation because, while 911 wasn't about Islam, and while a lot of people want to keep it that way, a few very loud people want very much to change that. Some want to use 911 to demonize all Muslims. Some want to use 911 to show that since Islam and Muslims suffered, in some cases even died, it's a chance to demonstrate Islams peaceful brotherhood by building bridges. Right. If they want to build bridges and foster healing, fulfill the charitable pillar of Islam and donate to a victims relief fund. They don't even have to put anyones name or title on it to say, "SEE? Islam does GOOD things!"
And if they don't make it known then how is public opinion of them ever going to change? They could be utter saints and if it is top secret people will still hate them.
The only way to change public image and opinion is to do things publicly.
Exactly. They do still have every right to comment on it though. At the risk of parroting the far right, I've heard NO ONE suggest that the mosque CAN'T be built, just a lot of people saying it SHOULDN'T be, at least not at that location. Even Sarah Palin is on record to that effect, even though she said almost in the same breath that Obamas earlier statement that it would be un-American to stop it shows he "doesn't get it. " Legally, if not morally, in America you can judge both people and their behavior--you just can't impose your judgments on them.
So by advocating strongly that this is dumb and shifting public opinion with that stance, you aren't imposing judgement? Of course you are. You are just masking it - or letting others take the blame for it.
Yes, you are entitled to express your opinion. But if you wish to be fair and clear you should make clear that while you dislike their choice to do X you fully support their right to do it.
Myself I don't much know (or care) if it is a 'good idea' or not. Because it's none of my business. It is, however, their right to do what they wish with their land. That's what I am defending.
My mistake; I was under the impression Manhattan was larger than 500 square feet (how'd they fit hundreds of mosques into that small a space? )
If this isn't about rehabilitating Islam after 911 why does it have to be a mosque and community center? Why not just a community center with a non-sectarian area for prayer, reflection and meditation?
If this isn't about rehabilitating Islam after 911 why does it have to be a mosque and community center? Why not just a community center with a non-sectarian area for prayer, reflection and meditation?
Quite likely it's because the one mosque already in the area (yes there is one) is packed so full that people are already USING this building, even though it's still a largely vacant ex-coat factory - as a mosque. With the other one full to overflowing they have no real choice. Why do they want to build a mosque in there? Because they NEED one. That simple really.
I understand the desire to say, "but we're not like them!" yet the fact remains that building an Islamic religious institution right next to where thousands were murdered in the name of Islam is the exact opposite of disassociating 911 from Islam.
I'm sorry - I really have an issue with calling something two football fields away, around a corner and entirely out of line of sight 'right next to' anything.
It's only 'right next to' it because you don't like it.
So what isn't right next to it then? Four hundred yards? Six hundred yards? A kilometer? Two? What's good enough?
Actually, the US Constitution says I can say almost anything I please. The same part that guarantees their right to build the mosque guarantees my right to bitch about them building the mosque; it took a SCOTUS ruling less than a century old to deny my "right" to cause a riot through speech.
Fair enough. Bitch that you don't like it. But while doing so qualify that you also respect the Constitution and their rights to do what they please with their property and have their religion protected.
Because, you see, what you are bitching about IS a form of religious persecution. It is because if it was another religion (say, yours) you wouldn't be bitching.
And you know what? If radical Christians had crashed those planes, you still wouldn't be bitching.
No, no one would say anything if a Christian church were built across the street from the WTC, but they might feel differently if a Catholic church with the mission of healing the damage of the Crusades and spreading the word that the Crusaders killed Christians, too, were built in, say, Damascus. Or Antioch. Or Jerusalem. Some might say it was in bad taste. Others, of course, would just declare jihad and start training suicide bombers.
The reason they want to build a mosque there is the very reason they shouldn't. They have every right to do so, just as I have every right to smoke a pack a day, but we also each have the right to call the others behavior foolish.
The reason they want to build a mosque there is the very reason they shouldn't. They have every right to do so, just as I have every right to smoke a pack a day, but we also each have the right to call the others behavior foolish.
The Crusades were almost a thousand years ago and anyone still freaking about that or upset by that should grow a brain or exit the human race. It's quite literally ANCIENT history and the people, their culture and their times are long gone. They are no longer socially relevant save as historical examples.
There are lots of muslims in New York and even in Manhattan. And if they need a new place to pray because, unlike all the slowly emptying Christian Churches, their demographic needs one, then they should be allowed to build one wherever they (legally) are allowed to do so.
Really, it's that simple.
May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk.
Old Egyptian Blessing
Old Egyptian Blessing
Wait, wait WAIT! The location for the so-called "mosque at ground zero" is actually 2 blocks away?!
17/08/2010 03:19:02 PM
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Another stupid question...is it even actually a mosque?
17/08/2010 03:28:37 PM
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it's both from what I've heard.
17/08/2010 04:00:54 PM
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sort of like most churches, mosques and temples? *NM*
17/08/2010 04:04:12 PM
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mmm, i think more like...
17/08/2010 04:08:55 PM
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my wife's church has a play ground and community center
17/08/2010 04:47:52 PM
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Been hearing a lot on NPR
17/08/2010 03:32:42 PM
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I could see it being insensitive if it were actually where the towers used to be.
17/08/2010 03:43:18 PM
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This could be part of the reason that most of the opposition doesn't seem to be coming from locals.
17/08/2010 03:53:06 PM
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seriously, it's not like property is some ample commodity in NYC *NM*
17/08/2010 04:03:24 PM
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you should probably keep in mind....
17/08/2010 04:02:25 PM
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So
17/08/2010 04:06:18 PM
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Ground Zero specifically refers to the north and south towers where the planes struck...
17/08/2010 04:26:40 PM
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it certainly has turned into a political land mine for Obama...
17/08/2010 03:54:03 PM
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True
17/08/2010 04:02:04 PM
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unfortunately...
17/08/2010 04:05:08 PM
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This is beginning to sound familiar.
17/08/2010 05:18:37 PM
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with the senate majority leader weighing it I don't believe it is all how it is mostly on the right
17/08/2010 05:58:10 PM
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Well, since day 1 of this whole debate alot of the opposition has come from the right.
17/08/2010 10:50:49 PM
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you assume it is pandering maybe they just agree with the majority
18/08/2010 02:30:53 AM
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I'm not saying it's a partisan issue, but it has turned political for all the wrong reasons.
18/08/2010 04:18:49 AM
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is the idea that it is not to close to ground zero the misinformation you are refering to?
18/08/2010 03:09:17 PM
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Well, it's not like they're literally on ground zero.
18/08/2010 08:54:08 PM
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Guess which of them will be out of a job in January?
18/08/2010 01:22:49 PM
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the only reason Obama won't be out of job is he isn't running
18/08/2010 03:10:58 PM
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Oh, I dunno if you could translate the current numbers into Obamas defeat.
18/08/2010 03:52:18 PM
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it was a large event so two half blocks really is pretty damn close
17/08/2010 04:03:17 PM
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Here's a map of the site for perspective
17/08/2010 04:08:41 PM
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so 2 blocks from the superblock then?
17/08/2010 04:13:03 PM
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I guess, superblock is an obscure term to this country lad
17/08/2010 04:41:11 PM
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It may not necessarily matter to people who are aware of that fact.
17/08/2010 05:13:12 PM
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mk, well, to my mind (being from phoeni, 1 full city block is about 1 mile.
17/08/2010 05:15:49 PM
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A mile is a serious exaggeration, surely.
17/08/2010 05:24:48 PM
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Remember, I did say in Phoenix
17/08/2010 05:27:43 PM
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I really need to see Phoenix some day.
17/08/2010 05:32:40 PM
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i still think houston is more spread out than phoenix
18/08/2010 08:21:10 AM
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unless you go far enough west of course
18/08/2010 03:30:45 PM
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Absolutely.
17/08/2010 05:28:38 PM
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Yeah, and it seems to be about 10 autobuses in distance on Google Earth.
17/08/2010 05:29:43 PM
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Google Earth says 500 feet between mosque and GZ *NM*
17/08/2010 05:30:59 PM
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*edit* Just for reference... one mile = 5280 feet, 500ft = approx 1/10 of a mile.
17/08/2010 06:26:19 PM
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Judging by Google Earth, the blocks inbetween both contain a single large building. (edit)
17/08/2010 07:08:05 PM
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Clarify: 500 ft between the mosque and the border of the area on the map? *NM*
17/08/2010 07:03:51 PM
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Personally, I think this supports Ave's point.
17/08/2010 04:16:15 PM
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You know what else is on Park Place? A strip club.
17/08/2010 11:58:56 PM
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Really? I had no idea
18/08/2010 12:06:27 AM
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Re: Really? I had no idea
18/08/2010 12:24:54 AM
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Hmm...
18/08/2010 01:23:14 AM
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knowing there's a strip club and "walking those streets"; seems like you've "gotten around"
18/08/2010 02:03:14 AM
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They're building on the hallowed ground of a Burlington Coat Factory!
17/08/2010 04:13:06 PM
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how so?
17/08/2010 04:14:17 PM
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From when the Moors conquered Spain
17/08/2010 04:18:18 PM
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to clarify though
17/08/2010 04:50:19 PM
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Yes, but you have to remember the mindset of those protesting.
17/08/2010 09:49:26 PM
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Sorry, but the card says it was "the Moops" so you must be wrong.
18/08/2010 03:56:11 PM
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Ezra Klein made a good point in the Washington Post...
17/08/2010 04:33:31 PM
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that is hardly the same thing
17/08/2010 04:56:43 PM
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My question is, why would you want to put a mosque/community center/thing that close?
17/08/2010 04:39:05 PM
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angry New Yorkers?
17/08/2010 04:45:01 PM
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I was going to guess 4 protests to your earlier post.
17/08/2010 04:50:08 PM
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We do not live in fear of what "a few crazy people" might do. *NM*
18/08/2010 12:02:06 AM
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Re: angry New Yorkers?
17/08/2010 04:53:58 PM
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I was wondering about that.
17/08/2010 04:56:28 PM
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angry New Yorkers? Geez, we are more civilized than that, thank you. *NM*
18/08/2010 12:01:12 AM
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not really *NM*
18/08/2010 02:31:46 AM
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your opinion is noted. now go eff yourself. *NM*
18/08/2010 04:11:25 AM
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that's pretty good
18/08/2010 04:44:14 AM
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That's right. Why resort to violence when a good rant will do? *NM*
18/08/2010 06:09:27 AM
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and a heart fuck off to you but thanks for the ironic reply *NM*
18/08/2010 03:18:25 PM
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How is it ironic? *NM*
18/08/2010 03:43:50 PM
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How was his uncivilized response ironic? *NM*
18/08/2010 04:18:17 PM
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Re: How was his uncivilized response ironic?
18/08/2010 04:23:25 PM
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Aaah
18/08/2010 04:31:02 PM
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Because the building is cheap as hell, because they're mostly abandoned in those areas
18/08/2010 01:25:13 AM
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Something I'm confused on
17/08/2010 04:59:41 PM
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another thing to consider.
17/08/2010 05:02:38 PM
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You'll have to explain to me what that has to do with what I said
17/08/2010 05:10:21 PM
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Of course you're confused. It was a tangental thought.
17/08/2010 06:06:29 PM
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Fair enough, I can't really criticize others for going off on tangents since I do it so much *NM*
17/08/2010 06:36:54 PM
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From what I understand, there's another mosque very close to the site
17/08/2010 05:06:26 PM
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I understand there's also a strip club and a xxx movie rental shop within that same 2 blocks radius.
17/08/2010 05:09:26 PM
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True but the buildings were not nocked down by radical strippers *NM*
17/08/2010 05:52:04 PM
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What do strip clubs and dirty movies and gay bars have to do with 9/11? *NM*
18/08/2010 12:33:59 AM
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Nothing, which is precisely the point. *NM*
18/08/2010 12:37:52 AM
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Can you explain your point to me then? Because I'm not following it.
18/08/2010 01:21:13 AM
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The argument is that it's "hallowed ground" and therefore should be treated with "respect"
18/08/2010 01:26:44 AM
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Pretty much what Greg said.
18/08/2010 09:39:33 AM
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then you are missing the point
18/08/2010 04:02:49 PM
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In all fairness...
18/08/2010 09:46:26 PM
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these guys are not babes in the woods
19/08/2010 12:28:24 PM
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This whole debate disgusts me.
17/08/2010 05:24:56 PM
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Jon Stewart made good point last night
17/08/2010 05:34:19 PM
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but it's the CONCEPT!!! practical effect is not the POINT of political debate!! *NM*
17/08/2010 05:53:30 PM
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which is why Obama was crazy to get anywhere this issue
17/08/2010 06:01:44 PM
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He's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't
17/08/2010 06:18:16 PM
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More than anything, I see this being a sensitivity issue....
17/08/2010 07:43:45 PM
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17/08/2010 07:52:07 PM
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Right on.
17/08/2010 08:09:44 PM
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yah, it sounds like the builders aren't being very thoughtful in their PR.
17/08/2010 08:12:20 PM
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yah, it sounds like the builders aren't being very thoughtful in their PR.
17/08/2010 08:12:21 PM
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The crux is they can't HELP stirring "up the grief and pain of the past. "
18/08/2010 01:49:21 PM
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are you serious?
17/08/2010 08:01:01 PM
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Yes, I am...
17/08/2010 08:14:27 PM
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The point is your analogy does not hold
17/08/2010 08:19:29 PM
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Plus
17/08/2010 08:26:36 PM
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Re: Yes, I am...
17/08/2010 08:42:27 PM
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Aren't they?
17/08/2010 09:19:58 PM
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You may be interested in...
17/08/2010 09:23:48 PM
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*nods* So I was right....
17/08/2010 09:26:59 PM
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That is probably not fair
17/08/2010 11:12:22 PM
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I know!
18/08/2010 03:06:25 AM
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Using a touch of hyperbole, perhaps?
18/08/2010 10:18:36 AM
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I'm so proud of you for noticing!
18/08/2010 10:48:14 AM
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Just making sure you knew I wasn't mistaking your reply for a constructive one
18/08/2010 12:08:41 PM
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I give constuctive replies where they are due
18/08/2010 12:30:42 PM
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COMPLETELY unrelated point that I don't blame you for ignoring...
19/08/2010 04:25:31 AM
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you are right of course
17/08/2010 08:22:23 PM
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So, you're saying muslims should leave nyc to show their sensitivity, right?
17/08/2010 10:31:55 PM
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so your saying you always speak in over the top rhetoric?
18/08/2010 03:22:20 PM
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THANK YOU
18/08/2010 01:13:16 AM
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Take deep breaths..
18/08/2010 05:25:16 AM
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Typing a post didn't really require all that much effort
18/08/2010 06:13:15 AM
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There are more important things in the world to worry about
18/08/2010 08:51:35 AM
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I disagree, anger doesn't help in this debate, and it's only going to make things worse.
18/08/2010 10:56:30 AM
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So what, the Americans supporting this mosque are "arrogant European pricks"?
18/08/2010 10:12:51 AM
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Kind of a stretch for you to make that assumption
18/08/2010 11:31:16 AM
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I hadn't read that other exchange yet, it made more sense after that.
18/08/2010 12:35:18 PM
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My only real objection is the same old one over whether respect is an entitlement.
18/08/2010 02:21:19 PM
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A mosque was built in the Pentagon months after 9/11
18/08/2010 01:23:11 AM
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Here comes the "xenophobia card."
18/08/2010 01:27:50 AM
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Which is why there was a bombing at another mosque earlier this year
18/08/2010 01:31:51 AM
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I think a better parallel would be the new neighbors opening a pool store.
18/08/2010 01:40:42 PM
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A guy on CNN made a really good point about this
17/08/2010 08:46:54 PM
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That analogy really isn't better than Jeo's, and I would think worse. *NM*
17/08/2010 09:02:50 PM
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hmm yes but that black man hadn't killed his dog
17/08/2010 09:22:15 PM
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Re: hmm yes but that black man hadn't killed his dog
17/08/2010 10:32:24 PM
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Yeah this whole debate is pretty pointless to be completely honest
17/08/2010 10:28:13 PM
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well we have been shot at from enough mosque to make it hard to tell at times
18/08/2010 08:25:58 PM
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I think this whole debate has made American look bad.
17/08/2010 10:58:23 PM
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So what?
18/08/2010 12:28:40 AM
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Okay, so we're no longer the land of religous tolerance.
18/08/2010 04:09:24 AM
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Were we ever?
18/08/2010 04:18:16 AM
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I guess not.
18/08/2010 04:25:03 AM
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Re: I guess not.
18/08/2010 05:56:49 AM
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Re: I guess not.
18/08/2010 10:43:05 AM
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How does this work, do you only look bad to a bunch of ass wipes, or does anyone who thinks you look
18/08/2010 09:38:28 AM
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Olberman's Special Comment on this one hits the nail on the head
18/08/2010 01:29:45 AM
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love that the Olberman video, but Jon Stewart did an awesome job too. *NM*
18/08/2010 01:32:59 AM
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Olbermann and Stewart are possibly the two best people alive *NM*
18/08/2010 02:39:48 AM
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they make the top of my list for people I wnat to catch an STD *NM*
18/08/2010 08:27:27 PM
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Let me just say...
18/08/2010 09:20:38 PM
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Re: Let me just say...
18/08/2010 09:22:12 PM
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I didn't watch that particular video, so maybe, yeah. *NM*
18/08/2010 10:11:22 PM
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I used to be so Idealistic to think this was AMERICA.
18/08/2010 01:44:38 AM
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the key phrase is "congress shall make no law...."
18/08/2010 02:23:53 AM
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14th ammendment changed that *NM*
18/08/2010 04:51:08 AM
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14th ammendment established a state religion?
18/08/2010 08:14:11 AM
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No, but the Equal Protection Clause extended much of the BoR to the states.
18/08/2010 02:50:31 PM
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did you go the the Huffington Post school of law?
18/08/2010 03:29:14 PM
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No, but I've spent more time around lawyers than I care to admit.
18/08/2010 03:45:36 PM
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The connection is inevitable and, I think, deliberate.
18/08/2010 01:15:41 PM
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Hmm
18/08/2010 02:26:17 PM
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Bottom line is it may be in everyones interest to DISassociate Islam from 911.
18/08/2010 02:58:17 PM
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No, bottom line is people need to be able to keep to thoughts in their brains at any given time *NM*
18/08/2010 03:31:03 PM
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You mean retain both "I want to promote Islam" AND "Dude, Ground Zero is right THERE! *points*"
18/08/2010 03:36:34 PM
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How long ago were the Crusades?
18/08/2010 03:48:53 PM
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Re: How long ago were the Crusades?
18/08/2010 03:52:23 PM
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So wait...
18/08/2010 04:09:10 PM
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Yes, Jerodam. Christians are good. All the rest are bad. I see it now.
18/08/2010 04:10:47 PM
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Stop freaking out Camilla. You are such a drama queen some times.
18/08/2010 04:15:06 PM
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That is not drama. That is fed up. *NM*
18/08/2010 04:16:32 PM
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You're not the only one who is fed up....
18/08/2010 04:24:27 PM
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*giggle*
18/08/2010 04:29:03 PM
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This may be nitpicking, but I'll do it anyway because it's a widespread misconception...
18/08/2010 04:30:20 PM
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I agreed with you at first - thought your first post was pretty insightful.
18/08/2010 05:46:02 PM
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The Crusades were by Christendom as a whole*, 9-11 isn't similar for Islam by some way
18/08/2010 04:04:54 PM
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Re: The Crusades were by Christendom as a whole*, 9-11 isn't similar for Islam by some way
18/08/2010 04:11:34 PM
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Some people will always wonder about such things; we're still accused of "Crusading" today.
18/08/2010 04:07:02 PM
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I don't disagree about the outreach, as such, but a remark...
18/08/2010 04:37:52 PM
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It's as much a local issue as the theme park Disney wanted to build at Gettysburg.
19/08/2010 03:15:03 PM
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A bit more background information
18/08/2010 05:30:04 PM
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That's informative, thanks, but I'm not sure it really changes anything.
19/08/2010 03:27:05 PM
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Step One: Manufacture controversey by means of misinformation (i.e. Mosque at Ground Zero)
19/08/2010 06:40:49 PM
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Can I just say...
19/08/2010 01:45:38 AM
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Roughly 2 football fields, yes. And around a corner
19/08/2010 03:17:24 PM
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Two hundred yards is nothing.
19/08/2010 04:44:34 PM
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Sure it is - it's two large city blocks
19/08/2010 05:15:46 PM
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It's two fairly average city blocks, and not even that some places.
21/08/2010 06:07:33 PM
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Well you can not like it if you choose
25/08/2010 03:39:49 PM
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