I'm not even taking the time to comment on something so obvious as what he did. *NM*
everynametaken Send a noteboard - 22/08/2010 02:53:10 AM
I know that's Dowds position, too, I just have no idea how she got there, but since you seem to maybe you can help me understand. What particulars of his first statement did he reverse in his second? Here's the most widely quoted part of the first:
"Recently, attention has been focused on the construction of mosques in certain communities -– particularly New York. Now, we must all recognize and respect the sensitivities surrounding the development of Lower Manhattan. The 9/11 attacks were a deeply traumatic event for our country. And the pain and the experience of suffering by those who lost loved ones is just unimaginable. So I understand the emotions that this issue engenders. And Ground Zero is, indeed, hallowed ground.
"But let me be clear. As a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. (Applause.) And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America. And our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country and that they will not be treated differently by their government is essential to who we are. The writ of the Founders must endure. "
Here's the second again:
"I was not commenting, and I will not comment, on the wisdom of making the decision to put a mosque there. I was commenting very specifically on the right people have that dates back to our founding. That’s what our country is about. "
Please show me the conflicting portion(s) of those two statements, because I can't find them. I know much of the right dearly wanted to read the first as an endorsement of the mosque just as the much of the left wanted to read the second as a repudiation of it--I'm just not sure what basis either had for their respective interpretations of quite explicit terms. I mean, I think I remember this scene from one of my favorite films:
Prince Humperdinck: Surrender.
Westley: You mean you wish to surrender to me? Very well, I accept.
Irksome as it sometimes is, in the real world we have to content ourselves with what people actually said rather than what we wish or think they said.
"Recently, attention has been focused on the construction of mosques in certain communities -– particularly New York. Now, we must all recognize and respect the sensitivities surrounding the development of Lower Manhattan. The 9/11 attacks were a deeply traumatic event for our country. And the pain and the experience of suffering by those who lost loved ones is just unimaginable. So I understand the emotions that this issue engenders. And Ground Zero is, indeed, hallowed ground.
"But let me be clear. As a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. (Applause.) And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America. And our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country and that they will not be treated differently by their government is essential to who we are. The writ of the Founders must endure. "
Here's the second again:
"I was not commenting, and I will not comment, on the wisdom of making the decision to put a mosque there. I was commenting very specifically on the right people have that dates back to our founding. That’s what our country is about. "
Please show me the conflicting portion(s) of those two statements, because I can't find them. I know much of the right dearly wanted to read the first as an endorsement of the mosque just as the much of the left wanted to read the second as a repudiation of it--I'm just not sure what basis either had for their respective interpretations of quite explicit terms. I mean, I think I remember this scene from one of my favorite films:
Prince Humperdinck: Surrender.
Westley: You mean you wish to surrender to me? Very well, I accept.
Irksome as it sometimes is, in the real world we have to content ourselves with what people actually said rather than what we wish or think they said.
But wine was the great assassin of both tradition and propriety...
-Brandon Sanderson, The Way of Kings
-Brandon Sanderson, The Way of Kings
An amusing column on the NYC mosque by Maureen Dowd....
20/08/2010 12:33:27 AM
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She has a point. Bush had the guts to weather the storm on DPW.
20/08/2010 12:42:21 AM
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DPW? I keep sitting here trying to figure out what that means.
20/08/2010 12:50:14 AM
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Re: DPW? I keep sitting here trying to figure out what that means.
20/08/2010 12:56:44 AM
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Once again, listen to the Economist and don't use abbreviations that aren't obvious.
20/08/2010 06:38:08 PM
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That abbreviation was obvious and all over the place at the time the incident happened.
20/08/2010 07:59:08 PM
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I certainly don't remember seeing it anywhere. The abbreviation was unnecessary in any event.
20/08/2010 10:43:05 PM
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Sure, I could've done that, if I had realized it would puzzle people. I did not. *NM*
20/08/2010 10:59:42 PM
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well since Christie is actually a republican he makes a better example than Bloomberg
20/08/2010 01:53:44 PM
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Gingrich thinks he is a deep thinker?
20/08/2010 09:42:15 AM
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He makes historical references as often as possible, or at least in pretty much everything I've seen
20/08/2010 12:37:02 PM
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As he was a history professor and writes histories and alternate histories, this is not surprising
20/08/2010 05:33:48 PM
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I'm aware of that
20/08/2010 11:47:32 PM
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Re: I'm aware of that
21/08/2010 12:40:29 AM
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Conservatives love Rome. I don't know why.
21/08/2010 01:20:27 AM
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Rome was more often than not governed by aristocrats and did, after all, invent the republic.
21/08/2010 04:50:53 PM
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Except there doesn't seem to be any conflict between either position.
20/08/2010 10:06:20 AM
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He has to learn he needs to be crystal clear on sensitive issues
20/08/2010 02:03:43 PM
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In Washington, one must always present the APPEARANCE of integrity...
20/08/2010 02:40:24 PM
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Clinton lied about the BJ but what is your airtight proof that Bush lied?
20/08/2010 07:44:53 PM
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This is a bit along the lines of what I have been thinking.
20/08/2010 07:49:15 PM
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I didn't see the problem either. He was simply stating the obvious.
21/08/2010 01:39:44 AM
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Then restating it for those who refused to hear it, so that someone else could refuse to hear it.
21/08/2010 04:22:30 PM
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Yes, his backtracking was quite pussy-ish. *NM*
21/08/2010 04:00:31 AM
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How did he "backtrack" exactly?
21/08/2010 04:35:33 PM
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c'mon Joel. are you being intentionally thick?
21/08/2010 05:02:27 PM
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Having read those quotes I don't think he was backtracking on anything. (With link to speech)
22/08/2010 06:27:06 AM
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did you take into your consideration
22/08/2010 03:50:59 PM
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I can't imagine why they would express concern over it. It wasn't controversial. That is on them
22/08/2010 03:58:32 PM
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I agree he is not backtracking
22/08/2010 06:49:36 PM
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While we're picking sides, I'm with Mook and Roland.
22/08/2010 08:20:11 PM
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I like how he's got rhetorical talents when it works
22/08/2010 08:32:15 PM
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nope just human *NM*
22/08/2010 08:37:17 PM
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that's not what Paul just said.
22/08/2010 08:42:24 PM
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He couldn't stay out, no.
22/08/2010 08:56:47 PM
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I don't want to argue with you on a Sunday, my religion says I have to relax.
22/08/2010 09:03:54 PM
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key word: seem
22/08/2010 09:06:40 PM
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I was only using that term for you guys. I don't feel like beating you with a rolling pin until you
22/08/2010 09:14:39 PM
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Seems I interpret his speech on the iftar differently from you and Tash - see my reply to Tash. *NM*
22/08/2010 09:25:13 PM
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I'm not even taking the time to comment on something so obvious as what he did. *NM*
22/08/2010 02:53:10 AM
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Joel
22/08/2010 05:37:45 AM
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His phrasing in the first speech implied that it was a bad idea. But legally they have the right.
22/08/2010 06:32:59 AM
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nonsense
22/08/2010 03:39:30 PM
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I still don't see how it can be misinterpreted except by intent by the listener.
22/08/2010 04:08:52 PM
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so we have reached the point of no return...
22/08/2010 04:18:46 PM
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In your case it would have to be number 2.
22/08/2010 07:38:20 PM
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ah, but I have no agenda here...
22/08/2010 07:41:59 PM
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lol.<3
22/08/2010 08:49:35 PM
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that it is...
22/08/2010 08:57:05 PM
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hee. Well, I still don't agree with you, but at least you're snuggly.^_^ *NM*
22/08/2010 09:09:22 PM
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Tash you are very much a fair person in this world
22/08/2010 08:34:38 PM
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Or there is another option: 3) He was using tact.
22/08/2010 09:01:49 PM
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I really have to disagree with your interpretation of that first speech.
22/08/2010 09:22:32 PM
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Lies, prevarication and deceit again, eh?
22/08/2010 01:17:45 PM
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that was a decent explanation....
22/08/2010 05:18:18 PM
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In the interests of fairness ( this does not support or detract from my position), here is the full
22/08/2010 09:22:50 PM
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