I'm not a big fan of Islam, either, but if/when I choose to take the religion as a whole to task, it'll be for something the religion as a whole teaches and encourages. The fact remains, they should've expected this, and that they didn't implies that they need to spend a little more time trying to understand how people who AREN'T NYC Muslims think about 911 (and a lot of other things) before leading any community outreach. I think most Americans, including most Muslims here, can see how this reopens a very deep and not so old wound, and I think any would be mosque builder who doesn't is focusing a little too exclusively on Islam to be leading "plural" and "multicultural" missions. Not that that diminishes their right to try one whit, but it diminishes their chance of success dramatically.
600 years....maybe 800? I'm not sure, but I know that it was some time ago. And yet people still bring that up when speaking of the ills that Christianity has done. For what it is, the face of Islam changed on that day as well. No longer do muslims have the easy ability to say that Islam is a religion of peace. It very well may be, but that doesn't change the fact that men did what they did in the name of Islam.
I think the reason the Crusades are brought up is because they are perceived as never having ended. What we define as the crusades did, but the tendency of Christian Europe expanding and spreading throughout the world only ended in the middle of the last century, when America took over. Imperialism is seen as a continuation of the same trend, and "crusades" are used as shorthand.
Particularly given that the most infamous empire in world history was created long before Christianity existed (in fact, I'm still convinced it HAD to be that way for Christianity to spread as it did) and only ceased persecuting Christians in the last couple centuries of its existence. Blaming Christianity for imperialism is like blaming the pill for promiscuity: I'm FAIRLY certain the latter predates the former, so it's hard to see how the former is responsible for the latter. Was Genghis Khan a Christian? Tamerlane? Xerxes? Nebuchadnezzar?
Sure, unscrupulous people have perverted Christian doctrines into legitimizing imperialism, as they have many doctrines, religious and otherwise, but laying that all at the feet of Christianity is both unfair to Christ and unduly generous to a lot of others. Being predisposed toward the spiritual rather than the material makes imperialism difficult to defend within almost ANY religious tradition, and yet it's been tried at various times with all of them. I could blame all Republicans for the Iraq invasion, too, but as enjoyable as it might be, it wouldn't be honest, nor fair to people like Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul, who opposed the war from the start. Doesn't mean I like all or even most of their OTHER policy positions, just that I'm not going to take an entire group to task for something neither unique nor unanimous among their ranks.
In one sense, a purely cultural and nationalistic rather than religious one, the Crusades have never ended, just as they began long before there were Popes around to promise celestial glory for waging war. On that level, Persias war with Greece and the Siege of Vienna were as much part of the Crusades as the fall of Constantinople. That's not about "Christian" Europe any more than it is the "Muslim" Mid-East though; it may be appealing to various demagogues at various times to make it into a righteous holy war rather merely cynical geopolitics, but allowing them that deceitful luxury only aids their cause.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Wait, wait WAIT! The location for the so-called "mosque at ground zero" is actually 2 blocks away?!
17/08/2010 03:19:02 PM
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Another stupid question...is it even actually a mosque?
17/08/2010 03:28:37 PM
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it's both from what I've heard.
17/08/2010 04:00:54 PM
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sort of like most churches, mosques and temples? *NM*
17/08/2010 04:04:12 PM
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mmm, i think more like...
17/08/2010 04:08:55 PM
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my wife's church has a play ground and community center
17/08/2010 04:47:52 PM
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Been hearing a lot on NPR
17/08/2010 03:32:42 PM
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I could see it being insensitive if it were actually where the towers used to be.
17/08/2010 03:43:18 PM
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This could be part of the reason that most of the opposition doesn't seem to be coming from locals.
17/08/2010 03:53:06 PM
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seriously, it's not like property is some ample commodity in NYC *NM*
17/08/2010 04:03:24 PM
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you should probably keep in mind....
17/08/2010 04:02:25 PM
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So
17/08/2010 04:06:18 PM
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Ground Zero specifically refers to the north and south towers where the planes struck...
17/08/2010 04:26:40 PM
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it certainly has turned into a political land mine for Obama...
17/08/2010 03:54:03 PM
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True
17/08/2010 04:02:04 PM
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unfortunately...
17/08/2010 04:05:08 PM
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This is beginning to sound familiar.
17/08/2010 05:18:37 PM
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with the senate majority leader weighing it I don't believe it is all how it is mostly on the right
17/08/2010 05:58:10 PM
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Well, since day 1 of this whole debate alot of the opposition has come from the right.
17/08/2010 10:50:49 PM
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you assume it is pandering maybe they just agree with the majority
18/08/2010 02:30:53 AM
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I'm not saying it's a partisan issue, but it has turned political for all the wrong reasons.
18/08/2010 04:18:49 AM
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is the idea that it is not to close to ground zero the misinformation you are refering to?
18/08/2010 03:09:17 PM
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Well, it's not like they're literally on ground zero.
18/08/2010 08:54:08 PM
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Guess which of them will be out of a job in January?
18/08/2010 01:22:49 PM
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the only reason Obama won't be out of job is he isn't running
18/08/2010 03:10:58 PM
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Oh, I dunno if you could translate the current numbers into Obamas defeat.
18/08/2010 03:52:18 PM
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it was a large event so two half blocks really is pretty damn close
17/08/2010 04:03:17 PM
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Here's a map of the site for perspective
17/08/2010 04:08:41 PM
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so 2 blocks from the superblock then?
17/08/2010 04:13:03 PM
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I guess, superblock is an obscure term to this country lad
17/08/2010 04:41:11 PM
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It may not necessarily matter to people who are aware of that fact.
17/08/2010 05:13:12 PM
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mk, well, to my mind (being from phoeni, 1 full city block is about 1 mile.
17/08/2010 05:15:49 PM
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A mile is a serious exaggeration, surely.
17/08/2010 05:24:48 PM
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Remember, I did say in Phoenix
17/08/2010 05:27:43 PM
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I really need to see Phoenix some day.
17/08/2010 05:32:40 PM
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i still think houston is more spread out than phoenix
18/08/2010 08:21:10 AM
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unless you go far enough west of course
18/08/2010 03:30:45 PM
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Absolutely.
17/08/2010 05:28:38 PM
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Yeah, and it seems to be about 10 autobuses in distance on Google Earth.
17/08/2010 05:29:43 PM
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Google Earth says 500 feet between mosque and GZ *NM*
17/08/2010 05:30:59 PM
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*edit* Just for reference... one mile = 5280 feet, 500ft = approx 1/10 of a mile.
17/08/2010 06:26:19 PM
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Judging by Google Earth, the blocks inbetween both contain a single large building. (edit)
17/08/2010 07:08:05 PM
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Clarify: 500 ft between the mosque and the border of the area on the map? *NM*
17/08/2010 07:03:51 PM
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Personally, I think this supports Ave's point.
17/08/2010 04:16:15 PM
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You know what else is on Park Place? A strip club.
17/08/2010 11:58:56 PM
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Really? I had no idea
18/08/2010 12:06:27 AM
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Re: Really? I had no idea
18/08/2010 12:24:54 AM
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Hmm...
18/08/2010 01:23:14 AM
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knowing there's a strip club and "walking those streets"; seems like you've "gotten around"
18/08/2010 02:03:14 AM
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They're building on the hallowed ground of a Burlington Coat Factory!
17/08/2010 04:13:06 PM
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how so?
17/08/2010 04:14:17 PM
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From when the Moors conquered Spain
17/08/2010 04:18:18 PM
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to clarify though
17/08/2010 04:50:19 PM
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Yes, but you have to remember the mindset of those protesting.
17/08/2010 09:49:26 PM
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Sorry, but the card says it was "the Moops" so you must be wrong.
18/08/2010 03:56:11 PM
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Ezra Klein made a good point in the Washington Post...
17/08/2010 04:33:31 PM
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that is hardly the same thing
17/08/2010 04:56:43 PM
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My question is, why would you want to put a mosque/community center/thing that close?
17/08/2010 04:39:05 PM
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angry New Yorkers?
17/08/2010 04:45:01 PM
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I was going to guess 4 protests to your earlier post.
17/08/2010 04:50:08 PM
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We do not live in fear of what "a few crazy people" might do. *NM*
18/08/2010 12:02:06 AM
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Re: angry New Yorkers?
17/08/2010 04:53:58 PM
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I was wondering about that.
17/08/2010 04:56:28 PM
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angry New Yorkers? Geez, we are more civilized than that, thank you. *NM*
18/08/2010 12:01:12 AM
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not really *NM*
18/08/2010 02:31:46 AM
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your opinion is noted. now go eff yourself. *NM*
18/08/2010 04:11:25 AM
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that's pretty good
18/08/2010 04:44:14 AM
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That's right. Why resort to violence when a good rant will do? *NM*
18/08/2010 06:09:27 AM
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and a heart fuck off to you but thanks for the ironic reply *NM*
18/08/2010 03:18:25 PM
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How is it ironic? *NM*
18/08/2010 03:43:50 PM
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How was his uncivilized response ironic? *NM*
18/08/2010 04:18:17 PM
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Re: How was his uncivilized response ironic?
18/08/2010 04:23:25 PM
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Aaah
18/08/2010 04:31:02 PM
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Because the building is cheap as hell, because they're mostly abandoned in those areas
18/08/2010 01:25:13 AM
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Something I'm confused on
17/08/2010 04:59:41 PM
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another thing to consider.
17/08/2010 05:02:38 PM
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You'll have to explain to me what that has to do with what I said
17/08/2010 05:10:21 PM
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Of course you're confused. It was a tangental thought.
17/08/2010 06:06:29 PM
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Fair enough, I can't really criticize others for going off on tangents since I do it so much *NM*
17/08/2010 06:36:54 PM
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From what I understand, there's another mosque very close to the site
17/08/2010 05:06:26 PM
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I understand there's also a strip club and a xxx movie rental shop within that same 2 blocks radius.
17/08/2010 05:09:26 PM
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True but the buildings were not nocked down by radical strippers *NM*
17/08/2010 05:52:04 PM
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What do strip clubs and dirty movies and gay bars have to do with 9/11? *NM*
18/08/2010 12:33:59 AM
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Nothing, which is precisely the point. *NM*
18/08/2010 12:37:52 AM
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Can you explain your point to me then? Because I'm not following it.
18/08/2010 01:21:13 AM
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The argument is that it's "hallowed ground" and therefore should be treated with "respect"
18/08/2010 01:26:44 AM
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Pretty much what Greg said.
18/08/2010 09:39:33 AM
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then you are missing the point
18/08/2010 04:02:49 PM
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In all fairness...
18/08/2010 09:46:26 PM
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these guys are not babes in the woods
19/08/2010 12:28:24 PM
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This whole debate disgusts me.
17/08/2010 05:24:56 PM
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Jon Stewart made good point last night
17/08/2010 05:34:19 PM
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but it's the CONCEPT!!! practical effect is not the POINT of political debate!! *NM*
17/08/2010 05:53:30 PM
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which is why Obama was crazy to get anywhere this issue
17/08/2010 06:01:44 PM
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He's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't
17/08/2010 06:18:16 PM
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More than anything, I see this being a sensitivity issue....
17/08/2010 07:43:45 PM
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17/08/2010 07:52:07 PM
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Right on.
17/08/2010 08:09:44 PM
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yah, it sounds like the builders aren't being very thoughtful in their PR.
17/08/2010 08:12:20 PM
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yah, it sounds like the builders aren't being very thoughtful in their PR.
17/08/2010 08:12:21 PM
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The crux is they can't HELP stirring "up the grief and pain of the past. "
18/08/2010 01:49:21 PM
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are you serious?
17/08/2010 08:01:01 PM
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Yes, I am...
17/08/2010 08:14:27 PM
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The point is your analogy does not hold
17/08/2010 08:19:29 PM
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Plus
17/08/2010 08:26:36 PM
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Re: Yes, I am...
17/08/2010 08:42:27 PM
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Aren't they?
17/08/2010 09:19:58 PM
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You may be interested in...
17/08/2010 09:23:48 PM
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*nods* So I was right....
17/08/2010 09:26:59 PM
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That is probably not fair
17/08/2010 11:12:22 PM
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I know!
18/08/2010 03:06:25 AM
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Using a touch of hyperbole, perhaps?
18/08/2010 10:18:36 AM
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I'm so proud of you for noticing!
18/08/2010 10:48:14 AM
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Just making sure you knew I wasn't mistaking your reply for a constructive one
18/08/2010 12:08:41 PM
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I give constuctive replies where they are due
18/08/2010 12:30:42 PM
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COMPLETELY unrelated point that I don't blame you for ignoring...
19/08/2010 04:25:31 AM
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you are right of course
17/08/2010 08:22:23 PM
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So, you're saying muslims should leave nyc to show their sensitivity, right?
17/08/2010 10:31:55 PM
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so your saying you always speak in over the top rhetoric?
18/08/2010 03:22:20 PM
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THANK YOU
18/08/2010 01:13:16 AM
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Take deep breaths..
18/08/2010 05:25:16 AM
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Typing a post didn't really require all that much effort
18/08/2010 06:13:15 AM
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There are more important things in the world to worry about
18/08/2010 08:51:35 AM
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I disagree, anger doesn't help in this debate, and it's only going to make things worse.
18/08/2010 10:56:30 AM
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So what, the Americans supporting this mosque are "arrogant European pricks"?
18/08/2010 10:12:51 AM
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Kind of a stretch for you to make that assumption
18/08/2010 11:31:16 AM
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I hadn't read that other exchange yet, it made more sense after that.
18/08/2010 12:35:18 PM
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My only real objection is the same old one over whether respect is an entitlement.
18/08/2010 02:21:19 PM
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A mosque was built in the Pentagon months after 9/11
18/08/2010 01:23:11 AM
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Here comes the "xenophobia card."
18/08/2010 01:27:50 AM
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Which is why there was a bombing at another mosque earlier this year
18/08/2010 01:31:51 AM
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I think a better parallel would be the new neighbors opening a pool store.
18/08/2010 01:40:42 PM
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A guy on CNN made a really good point about this
17/08/2010 08:46:54 PM
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That analogy really isn't better than Jeo's, and I would think worse. *NM*
17/08/2010 09:02:50 PM
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hmm yes but that black man hadn't killed his dog
17/08/2010 09:22:15 PM
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Re: hmm yes but that black man hadn't killed his dog
17/08/2010 10:32:24 PM
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Yeah this whole debate is pretty pointless to be completely honest
17/08/2010 10:28:13 PM
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well we have been shot at from enough mosque to make it hard to tell at times
18/08/2010 08:25:58 PM
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I think this whole debate has made American look bad.
17/08/2010 10:58:23 PM
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So what?
18/08/2010 12:28:40 AM
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Okay, so we're no longer the land of religous tolerance.
18/08/2010 04:09:24 AM
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Were we ever?
18/08/2010 04:18:16 AM
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I guess not.
18/08/2010 04:25:03 AM
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Re: I guess not.
18/08/2010 05:56:49 AM
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Re: I guess not.
18/08/2010 10:43:05 AM
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How does this work, do you only look bad to a bunch of ass wipes, or does anyone who thinks you look
18/08/2010 09:38:28 AM
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Olberman's Special Comment on this one hits the nail on the head
18/08/2010 01:29:45 AM
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love that the Olberman video, but Jon Stewart did an awesome job too. *NM*
18/08/2010 01:32:59 AM
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Olbermann and Stewart are possibly the two best people alive *NM*
18/08/2010 02:39:48 AM
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they make the top of my list for people I wnat to catch an STD *NM*
18/08/2010 08:27:27 PM
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Let me just say...
18/08/2010 09:20:38 PM
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Re: Let me just say...
18/08/2010 09:22:12 PM
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I didn't watch that particular video, so maybe, yeah. *NM*
18/08/2010 10:11:22 PM
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I used to be so Idealistic to think this was AMERICA.
18/08/2010 01:44:38 AM
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the key phrase is "congress shall make no law...."
18/08/2010 02:23:53 AM
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14th ammendment changed that *NM*
18/08/2010 04:51:08 AM
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14th ammendment established a state religion?
18/08/2010 08:14:11 AM
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No, but the Equal Protection Clause extended much of the BoR to the states.
18/08/2010 02:50:31 PM
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did you go the the Huffington Post school of law?
18/08/2010 03:29:14 PM
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No, but I've spent more time around lawyers than I care to admit.
18/08/2010 03:45:36 PM
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The connection is inevitable and, I think, deliberate.
18/08/2010 01:15:41 PM
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Hmm
18/08/2010 02:26:17 PM
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Bottom line is it may be in everyones interest to DISassociate Islam from 911.
18/08/2010 02:58:17 PM
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No, bottom line is people need to be able to keep to thoughts in their brains at any given time *NM*
18/08/2010 03:31:03 PM
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You mean retain both "I want to promote Islam" AND "Dude, Ground Zero is right THERE! *points*"
18/08/2010 03:36:34 PM
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How long ago were the Crusades?
18/08/2010 03:48:53 PM
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Re: How long ago were the Crusades?
18/08/2010 03:52:23 PM
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So wait...
18/08/2010 04:09:10 PM
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Yes, Jerodam. Christians are good. All the rest are bad. I see it now.
18/08/2010 04:10:47 PM
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Stop freaking out Camilla. You are such a drama queen some times.
18/08/2010 04:15:06 PM
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That is not drama. That is fed up. *NM*
18/08/2010 04:16:32 PM
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You're not the only one who is fed up....
18/08/2010 04:24:27 PM
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*giggle*
18/08/2010 04:29:03 PM
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This may be nitpicking, but I'll do it anyway because it's a widespread misconception...
18/08/2010 04:30:20 PM
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I agreed with you at first - thought your first post was pretty insightful.
18/08/2010 05:46:02 PM
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I have to agree with Jeo that that's unfair.
19/08/2010 02:47:23 PM
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The Crusades were by Christendom as a whole*, 9-11 isn't similar for Islam by some way
18/08/2010 04:04:54 PM
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Re: The Crusades were by Christendom as a whole*, 9-11 isn't similar for Islam by some way
18/08/2010 04:11:34 PM
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Some people will always wonder about such things; we're still accused of "Crusading" today.
18/08/2010 04:07:02 PM
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I don't disagree about the outreach, as such, but a remark...
18/08/2010 04:37:52 PM
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It's as much a local issue as the theme park Disney wanted to build at Gettysburg.
19/08/2010 03:15:03 PM
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A bit more background information
18/08/2010 05:30:04 PM
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That's informative, thanks, but I'm not sure it really changes anything.
19/08/2010 03:27:05 PM
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Step One: Manufacture controversey by means of misinformation (i.e. Mosque at Ground Zero)
19/08/2010 06:40:49 PM
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Can I just say...
19/08/2010 01:45:38 AM
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Roughly 2 football fields, yes. And around a corner
19/08/2010 03:17:24 PM
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Two hundred yards is nothing.
19/08/2010 04:44:34 PM
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Sure it is - it's two large city blocks
19/08/2010 05:15:46 PM
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It's two fairly average city blocks, and not even that some places.
21/08/2010 06:07:33 PM
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