Do you have documents proving this assumption, or is it passed down verbal traditions?
Naturally he won't be able to provide documents as this tradition pre-dates writing.
However, he's not exactly, I think, entirely right. While a big part of the REASON marriage, or some kind of analogue of it, got started was due to agricultural property inheritance, we know that religion pre-dated agriculture as plenty of evidence for it is found in pre-agricultural anthropology. It seems likely that in those early cultures, religion and the 'marriage' ritual (which would have looked nothing like a Christian marriage of course) were probably pretty closely tied.
If you act under the assumption that a man owns his tools, his shelter, his wife/wives and his children, as is evidenced in many cultures, you don't need agriculture to be part of the arrangement.
The cultural goal was to solidify and clarify inheritance, yes. However it is also worth noting that 'marriage' in some form may even somewhat pre-date agricultural settlement as quite a few nomadic cultures had an analogue. The Inuit do/did for instance, as did the plains indians and both were nomadic. However both were in contact with agricultural peoples and both have concepts of ownership so the tradition may be borrowed, or may be tied to the idea of ownership. I don't think anyone is entirely sure (and the reasons may not even be universal cross cultures).
From everything I've read, the idea of property/ownership is fairly universal, and wherever there is property or ownership, there are interpersonal relationships that could be called marriages that were usually handled as contractual transactions. The idea being a man who wanted to procreate, or to have a secondary food source in the form of a gatherer or agricultural laborer, would approach another group that had extra women of a young enough age to be both physically able to work and likely to bear multiple offspring because infant mortality rates have been staggering for most of human history. Sometimes the transaction was peaceful and involved an exchange of resources (tools, food, hunting land, etc.) for the woman, other times it was handled as a raid where the more aggressive group would simply take the woman/women, making them that man's property by force.
From what I've read, there is evidence of this kind of transaction before agriculture became the norm, and after as well.
Then again, I'm an amateur in this realm. Ask me about politics... there I'm a professional!
And secondly, who are you (and the minority who have chosen a similar lifestyle) to change something that's been as defined for pretty much existance? Why should society change something so fundamental to accomidate you? [ Note: I'm not saying this in an arguing way, but more to get you to articulate why society should change to fit you. Change my mind. ]
Okay - just to be clear here - 'marriage' has not been 'defined for pretty much existence'. Not even close. Human beings have been on this planet for around a couple of million years. We don't know precisely how long marriage has been around, but what indications we do have don't show any evidence of it for much of that time. Civilization is only some ten to twenty thousand years old. (The step pyramid at Sahkarah is circa 12,000 and is not a bad rough marker for the start of 'civilization' as we might define it). I believe we can find records of some forms of familial bonding going back to the Sumerians but I don't know of any older than that. There are records that predate that time (not documentation, obviously as writing wasn't invented yet) but none of those that I know of give us any evidence of formal familial bonding.
Look at records throughout history. In the written archive, we see marriage records going back thousands of years. Note that these 'marriages' are not always by any means 'one man and one woman' that's a fairly modern concept that people are trying to apply in a revisionist way. Lots of ancient cultures practiced polygamy, including the pre-Christian Jews and a great many of their contemporaries. Polyandry and group marriages were not as common due to the biological impact of how such things affected inheritance. Also, due to warfare, there was frequently a shortage of men and a need for more babies to grow into soldiers. In fact Athens, which normally practiced non-plural marriage, briefly made polygamy not only legal but in some cases mandatory in order to breed more soldiers and grandfathered those marriages when they phased out that law later - this is how Socrates wound up with his two wives. In ancient Egypt plural marriage was the rule for the royal family and often quite common for the nobility, depending on the time period.
Now, if we look at all those cultures practicing some form of marriage (defined as formalized family bonding, not his 'one man/one woman' revisionist crap) you find not only written records, often tax documents, but also large amounts of artwork. Marriage ceremonies on plates done for the occasion, painted on the walls of tombs. In frescoes and mosaics. They're all over the place as they were a key thing in the culture.
But if we look at more ancient art - those depictions are absent. You see all kinds of things in cave paintings, but nothing that looks like a marriage ceremony. At least not that I've ever heard of or seen. Given how prevalent these are in later artworks across many cultures, it seems a pretty good indicator that, at that time, there simply was no form of marriage that had any kind of cultural significance and quite probably nothing of the sort at all.
I was Phelix on wotmania, I will always be Phelix in the "real" world, and now I am Phelix on RAFO.
You will make all kinds of mistakes; but as long as you are generous and true and also fierce you cannot hurt the world or even seriously distress her.- Churchill
*MySmiley*
You will make all kinds of mistakes; but as long as you are generous and true and also fierce you cannot hurt the world or even seriously distress her.- Churchill
*MySmiley*
Gay Marriage
12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM
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I disagree on the latter part
12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM
- 1210 Views
I follow your point...
12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM
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Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously.
12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM
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See, that's what I'm saying...
12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM
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You didn't read my post.
12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM
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Actually, you didn't read my post
12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM
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Um, you're wrong.
12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM
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Re: Um, you're wrong.
12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM
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Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM
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You're still wrong.
12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM
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Re: You're still wrong.
12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM
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Again, you are still wrong.
12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM
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Re: Again, you are still wrong.
12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM
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Wrong definition of "club"
12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM
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Re: Wrong definition of "club"
12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM
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Also
12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM
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And wrong again.
12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM
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Not so quick!
12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM
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Yes, so quick!
12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM
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Let's be reasonable here
12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM
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Why do you get to judge?
12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM
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I don't
12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM
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OK.
12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM
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Re: OK.
12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM
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Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith.
12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM
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Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith.
12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM
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Then please stop.
12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM
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What's wrong with discussion?
12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM
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Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something.
12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM
- 1047 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay?
12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM
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Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay?
12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM
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Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer.
12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM
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Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer.
12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM
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Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes.
12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM
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Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need
12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM
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Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need
12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM
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Gah.
12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM
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What a mature response.
12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM
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I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se.
12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM
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Um
12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM
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That's a very good question. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM
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It makes no sense
12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM
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Re: It makes no sense
12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM
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Re: It makes no sense
12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM
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Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder...
12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM
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Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder...
12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM
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What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin?
12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM
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Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin?
13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM
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Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM*
13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM
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13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM
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Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM*
13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM
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Yes
13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM
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Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off.
12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM
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secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage
12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM
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Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately.
12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM
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And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing.
12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM
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It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me.
12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM
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I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem.
12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM
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What in the world would that accomplish?
12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM
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Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently.
12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM
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the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition..
12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM
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heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough*
12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM
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thats OK I am sure you will get over it
12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM
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Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit.
12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM
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Really? I was hoping for something better
12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM
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So government recognition makes your religion meaningful?
12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM
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not my religion I'm agnostic
12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM
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I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM*
12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM
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no but your are European and that slants your views *NM*
12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM
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Simples
12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM
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there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism
12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM
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So.
14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM
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sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad
14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM
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You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny
15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM
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Agreed *NM*
12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM
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I love you, Camilla
12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM
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Re: I love you, Camilla
12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM
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A couple of things
12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM
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there is major flaw in your argument
12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM
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Re: there is major flaw in your argument
12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM
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I should clarify that I support gay marriage
12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM
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One point about Prop. 8
12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM
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I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong
12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM
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Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it.
12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM
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that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons
12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM
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Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions.
12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM
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there are major flaws in your argument
12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM
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Women can't be priests in the Catholic church.
12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM
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Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional.
12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM
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You are absolutely wrong
12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM
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Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin.
13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM
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Why do people equate....
12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM
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Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning...
12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM
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Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM*
12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM
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I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM
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Re: Why do people equate....
12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM
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+1
12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM
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Stop with the pile on Camilla.
12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM
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You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed"
12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM
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Which speaks highly of you....
12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM
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This is being very petty. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM
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As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM*
12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM
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It's not snarky.
12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM
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Its a +1 shorthand comment...
12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM
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Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations?
12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM
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Re: Why do people equate....
12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM
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you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious
12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM
- 1017 Views
Ok, so if the state does then...
12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM
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No, marriage started because of property.
12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM
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So then two things come to mind...
12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM
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Only two?
12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM
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That's a little difficult to do
13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM
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Re: That's a little difficult to do
13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM
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Property isn't just agricultural.
13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM
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yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights
13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM
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The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back...
13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM
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Actually, I agree with that
12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM
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See, what I don't get is why gay people care about
12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM
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It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state.
12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM
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I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM*
12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM
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Starting again
12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM
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Not at all
12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM
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Re: Not at all
13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM
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Agreed *NM*
13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM
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Oh dear
13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM
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I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft?
12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM
- 1108 Views