Active Users:1062 Time:11/03/2025 07:29:01 PM
Let's be reasonable here MalkierKnight Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM
I've just done some research on that case. BSA was only allowed to dismiss him on the grounds that association with homosexuals "altered" the boy scouts "expressive message."

The expressive message of christianity is a broad and varied thing, but it certainly is not anti-gay. Sin, throughout christianity, is embraced and accepted as part of life we must forgive and deal with.

This, in a nutshell, is my whole point. In fact, your mention of BSA v. Dale only strengthens my points because it states that the expressive message of the church must be altered by marrying gays. Or, as I said it, the essence of christianity.

I don't see how the expressive message of christianity is altered in any way by gay marriage. And I challenge you to show me.


There is not a single "expressive message" for Christianity. The Eastern Orthodox churches definitely wouldn't recognize Benny Hinn's ministry as "Christianity." Nor would the Catholics call the little home cell churches run by a single pastor with his family making up the flock the same thing as their Church.

Each Church, at least in America, is considered its own legal entity. There certainly are churches whose message of biblical literalism where homosexuality is condemned as an abomination would be altered by forcing them to perform and condone gay marriages.

Your challenge was accepted and easily defeated. Thank you, come again.


Obviously there are countless denominations out there. Which is why discrimination ought to be analyzed on a case by case basis. If there's a church out there that says gay people are demons on earth, then marrying them clearly effects their expressive message.

However, many churches allow and permit sinning of many kinds. They do this because there is an admission that every human being is a sinner and that we must acknowledge that fact before we can become one with god.

Churches, as I stated in a different post below this one, often "sanction" sin, after a fashion or at the very least, permit it. This happens in case of divorce or premarital sex and a number of other issues I can't think off hand. I go into a lot more depth in the other post, so you can check there if you want, but you seem quick enough to get the gist of it.

So saying it's illegal to ban gay marriage is not altering the expressive message of a number of churches. If anything, it's upholding it.


Unless you are a member of each of those churches, or have done an exhaustive study that was confirmed by members of those churches, you cannot speak to their expressive message as a whole.


I don't think all of three lines in the bible amounts to the expressive message of christianity.
You must unlearn what you have learned.
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Gay Marriage - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 1921 Views
I disagree on the latter part - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1286 Views
I follow your point... - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1267 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1263 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1227 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1102 Views
You didn't read my post. - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1139 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1183 Views
Um, you're wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1178 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1148 Views
You're still wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1280 Views
Re: You're still wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1130 Views
Again, you are still wrong. - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1183 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 1029 Views
Wrong definition of "club" - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1287 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 611 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 629 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1192 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1190 Views
Also also: - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1179 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1123 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1221 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1108 Views
Also - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1238 Views
And wrong again. - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1257 Views
Not so quick! - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1093 Views
Yes, so quick! - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 1049 Views
Let's be reasonable here - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1157 Views
Why do you get to judge? - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1185 Views
I don't - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 1067 Views
OK. - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1187 Views
Re: OK. - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1125 Views
Then please stop. - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1154 Views
What's wrong with discussion? - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1099 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1120 Views
Really? - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1138 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1120 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 1003 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1137 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1095 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1211 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1083 Views
You are wrong - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 931 Views
Really? - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 1009 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1110 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1190 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1180 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1111 Views
Gah. - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 1052 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 567 Views
What a mature response. - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1258 Views
Yes. - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1180 Views
Re: Yes. - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1135 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1056 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1146 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1162 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 1066 Views
+1 - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 941 Views
Hehe - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 990 Views
Um - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1208 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 562 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 597 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 496 Views
It makes no sense - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 1051 Views
Re: It makes no sense - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1131 Views
Re: It makes no sense - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1204 Views
It's not sanctioning anything - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1144 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1119 Views
Nonsense - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1072 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 1037 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1159 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1088 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1215 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1198 Views
*NM* - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 403 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1168 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1147 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 550 Views
really? - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 1024 Views
- 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 951 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 532 Views
Yes - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 996 Views
Which is interesting - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 983 Views
Yes - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 961 Views
Original poster. *NM* - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 593 Views
- 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 1017 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 1029 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 931 Views
Ya know?!? - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 1052 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1148 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1165 Views
There is a difference... - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1196 Views
No you don't. - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1173 Views
That's another concern - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1229 Views
Not quite my point - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1103 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1228 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 1060 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1151 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 989 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 1009 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 1020 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 1044 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1174 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1108 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1190 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 1056 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1155 Views
Of course it would - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1241 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 615 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 607 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1123 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 610 Views
Simples - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1125 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1099 Views
So. - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 980 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1486 Views
Agreed *NM* - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 491 Views
I love you, Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 924 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1122 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 636 Views
Naturally. - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1113 Views
I know I do *NM* - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 570 Views
Another thing - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1211 Views
A couple of things - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1108 Views
I disagree - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1209 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1198 Views
there is major flaw in your argument - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1234 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1122 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 1058 Views
One point about Prop. 8 - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1068 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 1020 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1108 Views
there are major flaws in your argument - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1195 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 882 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 525 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 526 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1129 Views
I feel your pain *NM* - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 614 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1196 Views
100% agreed. - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1205 Views
This. *NM* - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 450 Views
You are absolutely wrong - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1139 Views
By that token - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 1028 Views
My God.... - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1093 Views
no You are absolutely wrong - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 1041 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1110 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1220 Views
Fair enough. - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1166 Views
Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 1069 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1142 Views
So then.... - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 1067 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 921 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1225 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1209 Views
+1 - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1248 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1172 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 1000 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1180 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 576 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 591 Views
It's not snarky. - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1114 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1397 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 1027 Views
*shrug* - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1232 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 1031 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1215 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1121 Views
LOL - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1082 Views
Re: LOL - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 1037 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1086 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 1024 Views
No, marriage started because of property. - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1118 Views
So then two things come to mind... - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1098 Views
Only two? - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1094 Views
Is this the same guy... - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 1005 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1085 Views
That's a little difficult to do - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1261 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1131 Views
Oh, I hope not - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1138 Views
I may be wrong - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1082 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 1018 Views
True enough - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1317 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1093 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1080 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1089 Views
moot, not mute - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1341 Views
damn - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1170 Views
Actually, I agree with that - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 986 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 978 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 1048 Views
Rights.... - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 1058 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1085 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1203 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 627 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1216 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 569 Views
Starting again - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1187 Views
Not at all - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1116 Views
Re: Not at all - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 902 Views
Agreed *NM* - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 465 Views
Oh dear - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 1013 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 593 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 904 Views
I'm curious - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 1070 Views
- 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 950 Views
Okay, good. - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1130 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1162 Views
very nicely said *NM* - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 478 Views

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