Well, I think that it's unfair of you to automatically throw churches in with the same lot as private clubs, etc. I think the reason private clubs are allowed to exclude certain people is because the function of a club (and I'm assuming night clubs are what we're talking about?) is very dependent on who goes there. The crowd of people, the music, etc. If a club let just anyone in, wearing anything, it would be damaging to its reputation and image.
Furthermore, I think if a club turned away all black people there would be serious problems.
And colleges aren't allowed to pick whoever they want. They have to accept some minorities.
The workplace allows it, to my understanding, because it is discrimination of a severe and harmful brand to exclude employment based on race or gender (and I believe sexual preference).
Race and gender are well outlined bases for harmful discrimination, sexual preference is not. The common thread between race and gender is that discrimination is not permitted unless doing so preserves the expressive message of the private institution. Race, gender and sexual preference in my view often do not affect the expressive message of a workplace, restaurant, or church.
Discrimination is a lot less tolerated than you seem to think it is. I even recall one case being heard about discrimination of parents because a restaurant refused to serve parents with a baby.
Apparently the case has some weight to it, but I honestly don't know enough to say.
Furthermore, I think if a club turned away all black people there would be serious problems.
And colleges aren't allowed to pick whoever they want. They have to accept some minorities.
The workplace allows it, to my understanding, because it is discrimination of a severe and harmful brand to exclude employment based on race or gender (and I believe sexual preference).
Race and gender are well outlined bases for harmful discrimination, sexual preference is not. The common thread between race and gender is that discrimination is not permitted unless doing so preserves the expressive message of the private institution. Race, gender and sexual preference in my view often do not affect the expressive message of a workplace, restaurant, or church.
Discrimination is a lot less tolerated than you seem to think it is. I even recall one case being heard about discrimination of parents because a restaurant refused to serve parents with a baby.
Apparently the case has some weight to it, but I honestly don't know enough to say.
Club as in a group of people choosing to associate together. Think like the Elks Lodge, or a Gentleman's Club, or a fanclub for some pop idol. That kind of club. And, again, provided they do not accept public funds to operate, they are allowed to exclude whomever they want. There was another recent case that said a christian club in one of the state schools in California was free to exclude homosexual members, but that they could not then expect to receive the funds provided by the public school which came with the caveats of non discrimination policies.
I was Phelix on wotmania, I will always be Phelix in the "real" world, and now I am Phelix on RAFO.
You will make all kinds of mistakes; but as long as you are generous and true and also fierce you cannot hurt the world or even seriously distress her.- Churchill
*MySmiley*
You will make all kinds of mistakes; but as long as you are generous and true and also fierce you cannot hurt the world or even seriously distress her.- Churchill
*MySmiley*
Gay Marriage
12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM
- 1834 Views
I disagree on the latter part
12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM
- 1210 Views
I follow your point...
12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM
- 1192 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously.
12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM
- 1188 Views
See, that's what I'm saying...
12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM
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You didn't read my post.
12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM
- 1065 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post
12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM
- 1106 Views
Um, you're wrong.
12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM
- 1114 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong.
12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM
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Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM
- 564 Views
You're still wrong.
12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM
- 1210 Views
Re: You're still wrong.
12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM
- 1066 Views
Again, you are still wrong.
12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM
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Re: Again, you are still wrong.
12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM
- 961 Views
Wrong definition of "club"
12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM
- 1211 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club"
12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM
- 1117 Views
Also
12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM
- 1159 Views
And wrong again.
12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM
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Not so quick!
12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM
- 1020 Views
Yes, so quick!
12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM
- 966 Views
Let's be reasonable here
12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM
- 1077 Views
Why do you get to judge?
12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM
- 1104 Views
I don't
12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM
- 998 Views
OK.
12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM
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Re: OK.
12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM
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Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith.
12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM
- 1004 Views
Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith.
12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM
- 1121 Views
Then please stop.
12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM
- 1078 Views
What's wrong with discussion?
12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM
- 1018 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something.
12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM
- 1047 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay?
12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM
- 919 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay?
12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM
- 1065 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer.
12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM
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Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer.
12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM
- 1135 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes.
12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM
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Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need
12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM
- 1105 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need
12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM
- 1038 Views
Gah.
12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM
- 989 Views
What a mature response.
12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM
- 1171 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se.
12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM
- 1010 Views
Um
12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM
- 1137 Views
That's a very good question. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM
- 532 Views
It makes no sense
12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM
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Re: It makes no sense
12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM
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Re: It makes no sense
12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM
- 1128 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder...
12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM
- 968 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder...
12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM
- 1080 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin?
12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM
- 1137 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin?
13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM
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Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM*
13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM
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13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM
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Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM*
13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM
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Yes
13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM
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Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off.
12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM
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secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage
12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM
- 1148 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately.
12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM
- 985 Views
And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing.
12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM
- 1033 Views
It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me.
12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM
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I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem.
12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM
- 1055 Views
What in the world would that accomplish?
12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM
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Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently.
12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM
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the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition..
12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM
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heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough*
12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM
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thats OK I am sure you will get over it
12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM
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Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit.
12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM
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Really? I was hoping for something better
12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM
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So government recognition makes your religion meaningful?
12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM
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not my religion I'm agnostic
12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM
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I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM*
12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM
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no but your are European and that slants your views *NM*
12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM
- 579 Views
Simples
12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM
- 1060 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism
12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM
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So.
14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM
- 896 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad
14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM
- 1415 Views
You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny
15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM
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Agreed *NM*
12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM
- 465 Views
I love you, Camilla
12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM
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Re: I love you, Camilla
12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM
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A couple of things
12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM
- 1028 Views
there is major flaw in your argument
12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM
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Re: there is major flaw in your argument
12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM
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I should clarify that I support gay marriage
12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM
- 984 Views
One point about Prop. 8
12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM
- 1027 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong
12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM
- 949 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it.
12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM
- 1035 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons
12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM
- 856 Views
Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions.
12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM
- 1016 Views
there are major flaws in your argument
12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM
- 1127 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church.
12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM
- 807 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional.
12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM
- 1076 Views
You are absolutely wrong
12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM
- 1070 Views
Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin.
13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM
- 989 Views
Why do people equate....
12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM
- 986 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning...
12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM
- 1065 Views
Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM*
12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM
- 595 Views
I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM
- 563 Views
Re: Why do people equate....
12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM
- 1137 Views
+1
12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM
- 1175 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla.
12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM
- 1103 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed"
12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM
- 925 Views
Which speaks highly of you....
12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM
- 1104 Views
This is being very petty. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM
- 551 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM*
12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM
- 570 Views
It's not snarky.
12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM
- 1041 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment...
12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM
- 1330 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations?
12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM
- 958 Views
Re: Why do people equate....
12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM
- 1137 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious
12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM
- 1017 Views
Ok, so if the state does then...
12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM
- 955 Views
No, marriage started because of property.
12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM
- 1051 Views
So then two things come to mind...
12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM
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Only two?
12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM
- 1025 Views
That's a little difficult to do
13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM
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Re: That's a little difficult to do
13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM
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yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights
13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM
- 1015 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back...
13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM
- 1000 Views
Actually, I agree with that
12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM
- 902 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about
12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM
- 1011 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state.
12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM
- 1128 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM*
12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM
- 599 Views
Starting again
12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM
- 1099 Views
Not at all
12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM
- 1039 Views
Re: Not at all
13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM
- 834 Views
Agreed *NM*
13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM
- 435 Views
Oh dear
13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM
- 949 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft?
12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM
- 1107 Views