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No, marriage started because of property. Phelix Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM
Seriously, God(s) has(/have) nothing to do with a secular marriage, which is the state's part of it.


Shouldn't it have a different name? Didn't marriage between two individuals (a man and a woman by the way) start because of religion well before any type of governmental structure?

Let's not get off on a "seperate but equal" debate or a name debate. This is more of a "Didn't marriage start because of religion?" debate.

~Jeordam


As far back as archeology goes, in every society I can think of based on my own readings and viewing habits, marriages began as a means of asserting ownership of the woman, the property, and recognizing the children as legitimate heirs to the man. Marriage began as a financial arrangement. Not a religious one.
I was Phelix on wotmania, I will always be Phelix in the "real" world, and now I am Phelix on RAFO.

You will make all kinds of mistakes; but as long as you are generous and true and also fierce you cannot hurt the world or even seriously distress her.- Churchill

*MySmiley*
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Gay Marriage MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 1834 Views
I disagree on the latter part snoopcester - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1210 Views
I follow your point... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1192 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1188 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1153 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1010 Views
You didn't read my post. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1065 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1106 Views
Um, you're wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1114 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1073 Views
Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM 564 Views
You're still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1210 Views
Re: You're still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1066 Views
Again, you are still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1113 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 962 Views
Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1211 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 578 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 589 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1117 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1133 Views
Also also: Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1143 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1045 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1151 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1027 Views
Also MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1160 Views
And wrong again. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1183 Views
Not so quick! MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1020 Views
Yes, so quick! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 967 Views
Let's be reasonable here MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1077 Views
Why do you get to judge? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1104 Views
I don't MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 998 Views
OK. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1110 Views
Re: OK. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1041 Views
Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM 1005 Views
Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM 1122 Views
Then please stop. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1079 Views
What's wrong with discussion? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1018 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1047 Views
Really? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1077 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1039 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 919 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1065 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1022 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1136 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1008 Views
You are wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 858 Views
Really? Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 948 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1030 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1126 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1105 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1038 Views
Gah. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 989 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 541 Views
What a mature response. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1172 Views
Yes. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1111 Views
Re: Yes. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1055 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1011 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1082 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1084 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 990 Views
+1 Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 876 Views
Hehe Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 929 Views
Um Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1137 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 532 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 574 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 467 Views
It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 975 Views
Re: It makes no sense MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1054 Views
Re: It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1128 Views
It's not sanctioning anything MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1081 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1050 Views
Nonsense snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1002 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... Kronin al'Sulc - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 968 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1080 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1013 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1137 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1128 Views
*NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 378 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1083 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1073 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 516 Views
really? Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 948 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 878 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 516 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 925 Views
Which is interesting Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 911 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 895 Views
Original poster. *NM* Rebekah - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 570 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 921 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 958 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 855 Views
Ya know?!? Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 965 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1072 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1084 Views
There is a difference... Dannymac - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1119 Views
No you don't. snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1101 Views
That's another concern Isaac - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1161 Views
Not quite my point snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1024 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1149 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. Legolas - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 985 Views
And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM 1033 Views
It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM 1042 Views
I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM 1056 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1069 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 920 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. random thoughts - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 931 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 939 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 975 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1099 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1029 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1115 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 978 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1091 Views
Of course it would random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1163 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 588 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 579 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1034 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 580 Views
Simples snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1060 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1057 Views
So. snoopcester - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 896 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad random thoughts - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1415 Views
You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny snoopcester - 15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM 1241 Views
Agreed *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 466 Views
I love you, Camilla lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 857 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1048 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 621 Views
Naturally. Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1037 Views
I know I do *NM* LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 545 Views
Another thing MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1124 Views
A couple of things SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1028 Views
I disagree MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1148 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1122 Views
there is major flaw in your argument random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1164 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1048 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 984 Views
One point about Prop. 8 Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1027 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 950 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1035 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM 856 Views
Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM 1016 Views
there are major flaws in your argument MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1127 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 807 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 496 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 501 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... lyringlas - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1050 Views
I feel your pain *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 580 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1076 Views
100% agreed. LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1131 Views
This. *NM* Ghavrel - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 424 Views
You are absolutely wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1070 Views
By that token Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 950 Views
My God.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1017 Views
no You are absolutely wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 958 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1041 Views
Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin. Tom - 13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM 989 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. Seriana Sedai - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1156 Views
Fair enough. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1086 Views
Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 986 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1065 Views
So then.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 992 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 842 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1144 Views
Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM 595 Views
I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM 563 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Sidious - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1137 Views
+1 Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1176 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1103 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 925 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1104 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 551 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 570 Views
It's not snarky. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1041 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1330 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 958 Views
*shrug* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1165 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 946 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1137 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1046 Views
LOL Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1018 Views
Re: LOL Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 965 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1017 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 955 Views
No, marriage started because of property. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1052 Views
So then two things come to mind... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1028 Views
Only two? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1025 Views
Is this the same guy... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 939 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1010 Views
That's a little difficult to do SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1186 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1054 Views
Oh, I hope not SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1053 Views
I may be wrong Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1007 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 936 Views
True enough SilverWarder - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1250 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights random thoughts - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1015 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1000 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law random thoughts - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1028 Views
moot, not mute Camilla - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1250 Views
damn random thoughts - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1095 Views
Actually, I agree with that snoopcester - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 903 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 900 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 970 Views
Rights.... Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 990 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about jh - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1011 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1128 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 599 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1126 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* jh - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 541 Views
Starting again Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1099 Views
Not at all MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1039 Views
Re: Not at all Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 834 Views
Agreed *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 435 Views
Oh dear Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 949 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 565 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 828 Views
I'm curious Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 995 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 886 Views
Okay, good. Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1058 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? Dannymac - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1107 Views
very nicely said *NM* random thoughts - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 450 Views
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