So your argument is that since a gay man can marry a woman as much as a straight guy, there is no inequality involved? That alone is gender discrimination by definition.
Actually, it's not. Both genders are treated the exact same. It's only discrimination in the sense that having separate bathrooms or changing rooms is discrimination, i.e. the literal meaning of the word which means to indentify a difference. If it makes you feel any better, in the states where gay marriage is currently legal, you would be able to marry another man, as well, presuming you found one to agree to it. You see? Still all fair!
Exactly. Given all the financial and legal benefits to such arrangements, it opens the door for massive amounts of fraud to cost people and the public. At least with such marriages for different sexes, there is a long-standing tradition backing up marriage that would curtail the freedom of such persons to participate in a normal relationship. With same-sex marriage, a piece of paper that creates a legal fiction of a partnership between two such people, there is no traditional or cultural impediment to each of them carrying on with the partner of his or her choice, and meanwhile transferring funds to avoid taxes, protecting coversations and transactions from testimony, gaining otherwise unauthorized residential or employment benefits and so on. Homosexuality clearly frightens you. If it did not, you would not care whether gays married or not.
The latter notion does not logically proceed from the former. As it does not affect you directly, it would not bother you in the least. But it does, doesn't it? Proven.
And what does that mean? "It does not affect you directly" is in no way a valid reason for closing off opposition. Did you ever hear of principles? Why must people be restricted to stands that only affect their well-being or interests? In fact, the OPPOSITE circumstance is generally prefered for a point of view because of a thing called "Conflict of interest." Your argument is essentially: "You have no conflict of interest, therefore you can only be driven by irrational emotions." Proven, my ass!By this standard, the only people who should be allowed to have an opinion on the death penalty are criminals on death row, and the corrections officials responsible for them. The only people who should be allowed to have opinions on gun control laws are gun owners. The only people who are entitled to an opinion on whether or not to fight a war are soldiers. The only people allowed to vote on the display or prohibition of religion and religious imagery would be members of that religion. Oh, and go fuck yourselves, disease-charity-people; only people with diseases are allowed to contribute now. Anyone offering an opinion on those categories is obviously just scared. Proven.
Before you ask, the reason I keep speaking up is because the precedent set by Prop 8 DOES scare me. It could just as easily be turned on me as on Homosexuals. Scapegoats are easy to create.
HOW? What novelty institution are you planning on inventing and demanding legal enforcement of? The only precedent set by prop 8 is the right of the people to refuse to recognize special privileges and institutions forced on them by their goverment at the behest of tiny minority. The only relation between marriage of gays and marriage of Christians that I made was that of a minority group being targeted by a majority using hysterical arguments as justification. You have gotten by now that I am not ACTUALLY advocating banning of Christian marriage, right?
The outlawing of a real marriage because of the religion or other circumstances of the participants is illegal and unethical. Refusing legal recognition of a play-acting imitation of marriage is not at all related to forbidding some from participating in the general practice. Not even homosexuals are legally prohibited from getting married. Same-sex marriage is equally forbidden to all groups, and heterosexual marriage is equally permitted to all. In what way will you have to "live with" the changes I am discussing? There are many gays married to each other. How are they affecting you? At all?
They are not legally enforced, which is the reason why they are not. What happens when spouse benefits start being cut by employers and various joint endeavors by couples start requiring exponentially greater paperwork and bureaucracy because of same-sex couples now claiming privileges intended to protect the basic relationship that underlies human society, but now made available due to a novelty practice made de jure by government fiat. I am not showing evidence of having considered ramifications because there frankly aren't any, besides one: Homosexuals will be able to enjoy the benefits of marriage to each other.
And what would those be? Make up your mind - is it something that affects no one but the couple in question, or will there be things in which other people are forced to comply with their partnership? Are you saying that employers who disapprove will not be forced to provide coverage for "dependant spouses" who are in a same-sex "marriage" with their employees? Are you saying that institutions or organizations will not be forced to treat such a relationship the same as they do a real marriage when ascertaining that criterion for whatever standards they hold? No one is asking you to be happy about homosexual marriage, or even approve of it. You can be as disapproving as you want, so long as you respect the personal rights of the people involved.
But this farce requires me to not only accept, but support such relationships. There is no natural right to marriage, but same-sex marriage, if enforced by law, will infringe on the rights of those who do not recognize it as such. Yeah, I am the shallow, thoughtless, and selfish demagogue. The one who is advocating for the equality of a group he does not belong to, man is that selfish.
Just because you don't belong doesn't mean you don't derive some satisfaction from your self-righteous posturing. THAT is why you are selfish - you are encouraging the government to tinker with institutions which will have no effect on you, but will affect millions of others, just so you can feel good about yourself. Who cares about the couples that will be deprived of the traditional benefits of marriage because the costs of extending them to same-sex "marriages" has forced them to be withdrawn? A bunch of smug moralists can congratulate themselves in striking a blow for equality because they are too dim to see the flaws in their comparison of completely unrelated issues. I COULD be like you, advocating continued oppression of a group I don't belong to, angrily protecting an unequal status quo. Man, I wish I could be selfless like that.
I am not married to anyone, nor have I any intention of doing so in the near future, but I am standing up for the defense of that institution. So, yeah.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
Let's ban all Christian Marriage.
07/08/2010 06:36:13 AM
- 1529 Views
Nice satire, but it raises another point for me.
07/08/2010 07:20:49 AM
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That would only be appropriate if Christians wanted to ban secular unions of normal people.
07/08/2010 11:51:29 AM
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Hey, look! There was a point over there!
07/08/2010 03:46:41 PM
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Who else should make those decisions?
07/08/2010 08:00:39 PM
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I'd totally...
08/08/2010 04:14:15 AM
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I'd totally...
08/08/2010 06:17:30 AM
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I used to think Joel was the biggest rambler on this site. I am seriously reconsidering.
08/08/2010 05:24:56 AM
- 976 Views
And my assessment of one poster as the most content-poor, non-contributing slug is unchanged
08/08/2010 07:17:02 PM
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*Shakes Head*
08/08/2010 06:23:47 AM
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I highly doubt Cannoli is "scared" of homosexuals *NM*
08/08/2010 06:29:54 AM
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Perhaps not in the physical sense.
08/08/2010 06:35:53 AM
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Re: Perhaps not in the physical sense.
08/08/2010 06:46:56 AM
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Re: *Shakes Head*
08/08/2010 07:43:11 PM
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I still do not see how you think marriage is a "pointless" institution
08/08/2010 08:05:45 PM
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No, I was referring to same-sex marriage. Real marriage hardly counts as a novelty. *NM*
11/08/2010 02:28:43 PM
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This must be the "thought out reaction" I've heard so much about.
08/08/2010 10:45:59 PM
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You cannot be that stupid.
11/08/2010 03:10:55 PM
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There's a lot of ridiculous arguments here, but I'll focus on just one of them...
11/08/2010 03:38:05 PM
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A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
08/08/2010 11:51:24 PM
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Plolygamy and incest are not on the same level of bad.
09/08/2010 11:00:07 AM
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Is that assumption valid?
09/08/2010 11:36:26 AM
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Re: Is that assumption valid?
09/08/2010 11:46:42 AM
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Re: Is that assumption valid?
09/08/2010 12:07:22 PM
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Spoken like someone who does not have to insure an employee's six wives.
11/08/2010 03:11:57 PM
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Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
09/08/2010 11:25:39 AM
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Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
09/08/2010 11:51:50 AM
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Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
09/08/2010 01:18:35 PM
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Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
09/08/2010 02:54:19 PM
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It should be noted again...
09/08/2010 08:59:32 PM
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and how is it not a right?
09/08/2010 09:19:12 PM
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My definition of rights...
09/08/2010 10:47:16 PM
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mmm, but the UN has legally stated marriage as a right.
10/08/2010 02:52:03 AM
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Article 16 probably not a great example
10/08/2010 03:44:04 AM
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You could just as easily move the emphasis...
10/08/2010 04:08:46 AM
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If we need a more specific resolution...
10/08/2010 04:22:12 AM
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No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
10/08/2010 05:25:57 AM
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Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
10/08/2010 03:04:39 PM
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That's really a ridiculous stance, you do realize.
10/08/2010 03:23:02 PM
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The point is that marriage IS a right, one which cannot be denied based upon sexual orientation *NM*
10/08/2010 07:04:16 PM
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Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
10/08/2010 03:46:56 PM
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It doesn't say a man can only marry a woman or vice versa, though.
10/08/2010 04:24:17 AM
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I know, and that's been brought up before. But that's not my point.
10/08/2010 06:09:32 PM
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Re: I know, and that's been brought up before. But that's not my point.
10/08/2010 06:33:56 PM
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It's mentioned as a right in some SC decision quoted in that Walker opinion. *NM*
10/08/2010 06:51:13 PM
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To clarify for you
10/08/2010 05:36:14 AM
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The UNSC is actually the UN's enforcement body...
10/08/2010 07:16:31 PM
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I'm not sure that I would call the Security Council the 'Enforcement Body'
10/08/2010 08:43:02 PM
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The fact that it is capable of authorizing the use of military force makes it an enforcement body
10/08/2010 10:33:59 PM
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What the UN thinks is *completely* worthless....
10/08/2010 06:43:15 PM
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Why don't YOU back up your assertion that the right to marry exists? *NM*
11/08/2010 03:16:02 PM
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The actual ruling on Prop 8 specifices marriage as a freedom, not a right.
10/08/2010 12:02:17 AM
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Out of curiosity, what would you say to using the Ninth Amendment, possibly in conjunction...
10/08/2010 12:20:19 AM
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Note it all you want...
10/08/2010 06:43:53 AM
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No, they seek to expand the terms of the partnership. Homosexuals can & do get married normally *NM*
11/08/2010 03:14:25 PM
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The best one yet.
10/08/2010 07:59:17 PM
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Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
10/08/2010 08:49:24 PM
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Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
10/08/2010 09:03:11 PM
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Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
11/08/2010 04:35:03 PM
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Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
11/08/2010 04:41:23 PM
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Hmm - been a long time since I read my copy of the graphic novel
11/08/2010 05:06:47 PM
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Re: Hmm - been a long time since I read my copy of the graphic novel
11/08/2010 05:09:23 PM
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