Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
Napoleon62 Send a noteboard - 10/08/2010 03:04:39 PM
Doesn't reference article 16 of the UDHR, but does articles 1 and 2, which does seem strange. Anyway if we are trying to prove that discrimination based on sexual orientation is against international law I think we just did.
Probably worth mention, the US doesn't appear to have signed that and for that matter many of the signatories don't allow gay marriage either, there's about 10 countries, starting with the netherlands in 2001 that allow it, and two who allow it in some places, the US is one and Mexico is the other, there's a roughly equal number where it carries the death penalty. and there are 192 nations in the UN, so we're not in much need to worry about violations
Well it isn't techinically legally binding on an international level anyway. At the moment. But wait a few years and my point will stand.
Anyway the issue on 16 is "Men and Women" since everywhere else it says 'Everyone' 'all' or 'No one' and such, but regardless, the clear spirit, not too mention the standard interpretation, are that gay marriage is not banned nor granted by article 16. Of course the UDHR is so much worthless paper anyway. It tends to get pretty specific too, wasn't written on a napkin, article two has a whole laundry list of "such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status" regarding who the rights apply to. There's also the generally futility of amending it anyway, since it is a non-binding measure, and there is, in article 29. a rather nagging "meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society." which is regularly cited by countries who pay the UHDR lip service. To the best of my knowledge our only violation to date is actually article 16, the marriage clause, since some states kept bans on interracial marriage for a while, and argues that the clause didn't say you had to permit interracial marriage, only that you couldn't deny someone of a given race the right to marry. There's also the article 5 torture clause but that's another issue.
Well it is arguable that the US is committing a whole series of violations, but Article 5 is the most blatent, 16 to follow it up. It never says that men and women have to be married to a member of the oppisite gender and though the choice of words may initially seem to provide fot that on further analysis it would at the very least permit homosexual marriage, at the most ensure it. I'm actually doing a campaign at my high school to get the UDHR integrated into the social studies curriculum, I think it is a major problem that so few people know or care about it.
The problem is lots of people go around declaring what something means, so courts decide, and I don't think you have made the case that the US and 181 of 192 other countries are not in violation of article 16.
Just because a vast majority of nations are committing a violation of the UDHR doesn't mean that it isn't a violation. Perhaps the ICJ needs to step and and make a judicial ruling on this, but until then I will hold that the UDHR provides for homosexual marriage.
*MySmiley*
"Men of true genius are like meteors, they consume themselves and illuminate their centuries."
-Napoleon Bonaparte
www.empire-iamhuman.webs.com
"Men of true genius are like meteors, they consume themselves and illuminate their centuries."
-Napoleon Bonaparte
www.empire-iamhuman.webs.com
Let's ban all Christian Marriage.
07/08/2010 06:36:13 AM
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Nice satire, but it raises another point for me.
07/08/2010 07:20:49 AM
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That would only be appropriate if Christians wanted to ban secular unions of normal people.
07/08/2010 11:51:29 AM
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Hey, look! There was a point over there!
07/08/2010 03:46:41 PM
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Who else should make those decisions?
07/08/2010 08:00:39 PM
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I'd totally...
08/08/2010 04:14:15 AM
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I'd totally...
08/08/2010 06:17:30 AM
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I used to think Joel was the biggest rambler on this site. I am seriously reconsidering.
08/08/2010 05:24:56 AM
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And my assessment of one poster as the most content-poor, non-contributing slug is unchanged
08/08/2010 07:17:02 PM
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*Shakes Head*
08/08/2010 06:23:47 AM
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I highly doubt Cannoli is "scared" of homosexuals *NM*
08/08/2010 06:29:54 AM
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Perhaps not in the physical sense.
08/08/2010 06:35:53 AM
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Re: Perhaps not in the physical sense.
08/08/2010 06:46:56 AM
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Re: *Shakes Head*
08/08/2010 07:43:11 PM
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I still do not see how you think marriage is a "pointless" institution
08/08/2010 08:05:45 PM
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No, I was referring to same-sex marriage. Real marriage hardly counts as a novelty. *NM*
11/08/2010 02:28:43 PM
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This must be the "thought out reaction" I've heard so much about.
08/08/2010 10:45:59 PM
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You cannot be that stupid.
11/08/2010 03:10:55 PM
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There's a lot of ridiculous arguments here, but I'll focus on just one of them...
11/08/2010 03:38:05 PM
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A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
08/08/2010 11:51:24 PM
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Plolygamy and incest are not on the same level of bad.
09/08/2010 11:00:07 AM
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Is that assumption valid?
09/08/2010 11:36:26 AM
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Re: Is that assumption valid?
09/08/2010 11:46:42 AM
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Re: Is that assumption valid?
09/08/2010 12:07:22 PM
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Spoken like someone who does not have to insure an employee's six wives.
11/08/2010 03:11:57 PM
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Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
09/08/2010 11:25:39 AM
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Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
09/08/2010 11:51:50 AM
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Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
09/08/2010 01:18:35 PM
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Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
09/08/2010 02:54:19 PM
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It should be noted again...
09/08/2010 08:59:32 PM
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and how is it not a right?
09/08/2010 09:19:12 PM
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My definition of rights...
09/08/2010 10:47:16 PM
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mmm, but the UN has legally stated marriage as a right.
10/08/2010 02:52:03 AM
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Article 16 probably not a great example
10/08/2010 03:44:04 AM
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You could just as easily move the emphasis...
10/08/2010 04:08:46 AM
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If we need a more specific resolution...
10/08/2010 04:22:12 AM
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No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
10/08/2010 05:25:57 AM
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Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
10/08/2010 03:04:39 PM
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That's really a ridiculous stance, you do realize.
10/08/2010 03:23:02 PM
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The point is that marriage IS a right, one which cannot be denied based upon sexual orientation *NM*
10/08/2010 07:04:16 PM
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Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
10/08/2010 03:46:56 PM
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It doesn't say a man can only marry a woman or vice versa, though.
10/08/2010 04:24:17 AM
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I know, and that's been brought up before. But that's not my point.
10/08/2010 06:09:32 PM
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Re: I know, and that's been brought up before. But that's not my point.
10/08/2010 06:33:56 PM
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It's mentioned as a right in some SC decision quoted in that Walker opinion. *NM*
10/08/2010 06:51:13 PM
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To clarify for you
10/08/2010 05:36:14 AM
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The UNSC is actually the UN's enforcement body...
10/08/2010 07:16:31 PM
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I'm not sure that I would call the Security Council the 'Enforcement Body'
10/08/2010 08:43:02 PM
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The fact that it is capable of authorizing the use of military force makes it an enforcement body
10/08/2010 10:33:59 PM
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What the UN thinks is *completely* worthless....
10/08/2010 06:43:15 PM
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Why don't YOU back up your assertion that the right to marry exists? *NM*
11/08/2010 03:16:02 PM
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The actual ruling on Prop 8 specifices marriage as a freedom, not a right.
10/08/2010 12:02:17 AM
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Out of curiosity, what would you say to using the Ninth Amendment, possibly in conjunction...
10/08/2010 12:20:19 AM
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Note it all you want...
10/08/2010 06:43:53 AM
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No, they seek to expand the terms of the partnership. Homosexuals can & do get married normally *NM*
11/08/2010 03:14:25 PM
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The best one yet.
10/08/2010 07:59:17 PM
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Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
10/08/2010 08:49:24 PM
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Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
10/08/2010 09:03:11 PM
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Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
11/08/2010 04:35:03 PM
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Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
11/08/2010 04:41:23 PM
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Hmm - been a long time since I read my copy of the graphic novel
11/08/2010 05:06:47 PM
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Re: Hmm - been a long time since I read my copy of the graphic novel
11/08/2010 05:09:23 PM
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