part oif the problem appears to be you completely missing the point
random thoughts Send a noteboard - 10/08/2010 01:23:19 PM
And those laws are based on the fourteenth and fifteenth amendment. If an airlines were to sue claiming that the federal government can not tell them how much they can charge people for tickets one of the reasons they would lose it the fourteenth.
The point I was making is that if the 14th is stretched far enough ten virtually any group can claim they are not getting equal protection And over weight people could sue the airlines because they are not getting equal protection. And before we go in a complete circle yes they can do that even though airlines are private entities.
I still don't know where you're getting this airline stuff. There are not, as far as I know, laws against airlines requiring overweight customers to purchase two seats, nor have I said that there are or should be (based on any amendment).
But there is a very real difference. When the second and third amendment was written they didn't know anything about automatic weapons and massive media campaigns but they did know what homosexuality was and they did nothing to protect it. You are wrong about treating companies as individuals and giving them rights, corporations have long been seen as having many of the same protections as citizens.
You're factually incorrect about corporations in early America; see the link below.
Sorry but links to left wing propaganda sites don't constitute and argument. Sorry but I must again point out that I do not accept reading assignments. Ask yourself this, in 1840 could a corporation's assets be seized by the federal government? Of course not because we are protected from illegal search and seizure. Why would that right be protected and not the right to free speech?
I agree with the part about changing social norms but the problem is social norms have not changed enough in this case or the amendment never would have passed. Courts can adept to changing social norms but they should not be the ones trying to change them.
Just so we're clear: the amendment passed because of a fear-based campaign which asserted, without a shred of evidence, that allowing gay marriage would mean that every child in public school would be "indoctrinated" into believing that it was acceptable. Now, I personally think it should be taught in public schools that gay relationships marriages are not inferior, but that's a separate issue from merely allowing them. The amendment passed because people were scared into believing their rights as parents would be taken away; it had very little to do with the actual issue at hand.
One of largest of liberals many faults is this exact sort of arrogance. Sorry dude but you don't get to decide why people believe the way they do and then decide to dismiss those beliefs because you have judged them unfounded.
Of course and even larger fault of liberals is the arrogance is so often undeserved. Sorry but your little fantasy that people only oppose gay marriage because of add campiagns is simple liberal again. People do not disagree with you simply because they are misinformed.
While we are discussing liberal faults sorry but you don't get to use the public school system to indoctrinate my children to your political point of view no matter how superior you believe it to be.
Sure I have but you refuse to accept it. A court decided to expand the constitution despite the fact that every other branch of government opposed it and the voters in every state that has voted on have opposed it. That is the courts acting independently and that is to far. If it was a case of defending existing rights or well defined rights I would agree but the courts are too alone on this.
Every other branch of government in the state or the country? If it's the latter, that's definitely not true. Also, as I'm sure has been said several times already, issues relating to minorities should not be put up to a vote by the majority. It is quite directly contrary to the founding principles of our government.
So you don't support the civil rights bill because that was a case of voting for rights? Or did you mean you believe you don't think people should be able to vote on rights when you don't agree with them?
Rights are not a bottomless bucket that can be dipped into forever and it is almost impossible to expand one group's rights without infringing on anther's. Courts can not be the only group allowed to decide whose rights are superior.
Wow that is the most backasswards idea of balance of power that I have ever seen. You are arguing that the check to keeps from running amuck a writing laws they way they see fit is amend the constitution.
That's always how it's worked. Courts made pro-slavery rulings on pro-slavery laws because, at the time, slavery was enshrined in the Constitution. The 13th Amendment was passed so those rulings and laws would become obsolete. If you review the history I'm sure you'll agree that opposition to that was also on a large scale; do you think they should have waited? Similar statements can be made about suffrage (based on race and gender) as well as segregation. If Congress decides that the Constitution as it stands is lending itself to interpretations they oppose, they have the power to change that.
Go back to your history teacher and slap him or her in the face then go slap your government teacher. First courts should not "make" laws and second slavery laws were passed by congress not simply granted by courts. Courts had nothing to do with the freeing of the salves and actually did great harm to minorities by ignoring the constitution in order to advance their personal political beliefs.
That is great sunshine and roses but it really isn't a fundamental part of government and never has been. If it was we not have had slavery and Jim Crow. I am all for equal rights but I don't want some life time appointed judge to be the sole authority of whose rights need to be protected. His job is to follow the constitution not bring about social justice.
Slavery and Jim Crow support my position, not yours. People have let their biases keep them from correctly interpreting the principles of our government in the past, just like they do now. That doesn't make those principles any less valid or important.
So now YOU get to retroactively decide what the principles of their government was? You can argue what it you think it should have been but you really don't get to dictate what it was.
And no Jim Crow was a case the courts supported the creation of unconstitutional laws but that does not support the argument that courts should go looking to correct all social injustice.
That would be valid argument if we were discussing the specifics of his ruling but since we are discussing broader concepts his ruling is nothing more then someone’s opinion on it. Feel free to site any part of you like but please don’t feel free to give me reading assignments. Read the entire bible and the Koran then come back and refute every point dealing homosexuality and law and then I will take you seriously.
The Bible and the Koran do not apply to United States law, as we are a secular country.
sorry but I can't you seriously.
It really comes down to the basic argument that the role of the court is not change laws and society but to ensure that the changes brought by the other branches meets the constitution. Courts should not be a vehicle for change and I feel safe in the assumption that there is nothing in his ruling that will change my opinion on that.
Social change needs to be forced through if it's ever truly going to happen. The courts and legislators have both played this role in the past, but right now the legislators of our country are hamstrung by their own cowardice in the face of ever-more-fickle public opinion (propelled by this relatively new environment of ubiquitous communication), as well as the anti-minorities "public referendum" systems of many states. That makes it the court's turn to step in, just as they did for segregation.
Your arguments seem to be predicated on the idea that arbitrary social conventions are worth more than coherent principles. The history of this country shows the opposite: as time goes on, we achieve progress by discarding such conventions in favor of better adhering to the principles we claim to respect. The idea that social change should require "consensus" simply is not supported on either a psychological or a historical level, as shown by the many examples I've brought up in this post and elsewhere. There is a tipping point for social change, but it's the point at which lightning strikes the ground, swift and momentous, forcing the eye to adjust; it's not the gradual sunrise, the sky becoming gray and then growing imperceptibly brighter from one second to the next.
So you can't get what you through the democratic means so we should create a tyranny of the courts? Sorry no thanks. You don't get to change the rules simply because you are losing the argument and believe that you are so right that your beliefs trump everyone those of everyone else.
It is nice bit a of rhetoric you have going on there but how many social changes can you site where social change was pushed through over the will of the people simply by using the courts? There is abortion I guess and that debate is going so well for us that it has made the courts the largest political hot potato of our times.
Arbitrary social principles are what hold society together. They have to be allowed ti evolve but they can't be thrown because a minority groups decided they have better way to things.
Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional
04/08/2010 10:40:50 PM
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Good news, but as the article says, it'll go all the way to the SC.
04/08/2010 10:55:58 PM
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So then is that how we do it?
04/08/2010 11:01:19 PM
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Of course.
04/08/2010 11:04:59 PM
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His point was
04/08/2010 11:40:14 PM
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Yeah but: What Ghavrel said below *NM*
05/08/2010 08:01:02 AM
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And again...
05/08/2010 06:08:56 PM
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To quote my property professor: "Can I make you think like a Californian?"
05/08/2010 06:39:48 PM
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I'm not the one who came up with the referendum system, you do realize.
04/08/2010 11:11:13 PM
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The referendum system, in my opinion, has been a failure, especially in CA.
04/08/2010 11:46:21 PM
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democracy has been a failure in CA.
05/08/2010 02:42:21 PM
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No. It just shows the problems of a crazy electorate.
05/08/2010 03:29:21 PM
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we vote fro way to much crap in general
05/08/2010 02:41:19 PM
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Yes, you still have to abide by the Constitution, even if a lot of people don't like it. *NM*
05/08/2010 12:07:44 AM
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Amend the Constitution to alter the Fourteenth Amendment if you don't like it. *NM*
05/08/2010 01:09:51 AM
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just a devil's advocate position here, but....
05/08/2010 04:23:43 AM
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Marriage is either an economic status regulated by law or a religious institution.
05/08/2010 05:13:17 AM
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There are certain things that should not be decided by a vote...
05/08/2010 02:02:45 AM
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I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular.
05/08/2010 02:17:24 AM
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Re: I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular.
05/08/2010 10:46:54 AM
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I understand it.
05/08/2010 03:06:40 PM
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I know you don't support proposition 8
05/08/2010 03:29:34 PM
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05/08/2010 03:34:01 PM
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But that is just simplistic and silly to complain about when it is a long standing possibility
05/08/2010 03:46:59 PM
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Oh, ees it?
05/08/2010 04:07:39 PM
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Well they knew the rules before they started the whole thing
05/08/2010 04:12:33 PM
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Why would you complain if you won?
05/08/2010 04:15:20 PM
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You could recognise that you won by the system working in a way you don't like?
05/08/2010 04:23:58 PM
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I'm sure that happens, in general.
06/08/2010 02:43:18 PM
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It seems to happen a lot nowadays
06/08/2010 03:06:33 PM
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It's so weird that you feel differently - there is only room for one opinion here!
06/08/2010 03:41:52 PM
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instead it should be decided by judges who answer to no one? *NM*
05/08/2010 07:12:59 AM
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The same judges who upheld our private right to bear arms.
05/08/2010 02:09:07 PM
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not when judges stop using the Constitution
05/08/2010 02:30:51 PM
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Sexual preference is not the right being protected.
05/08/2010 03:22:04 PM
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I know that the 14th amendment is routinely used in ways it was never intended.
05/08/2010 05:25:07 PM
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I realize that, but it is ultimately a good thing.
05/08/2010 05:31:19 PM
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let's take away the citizenship of all black people if that's the way you think
05/08/2010 09:06:23 PM
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Come now lets not be stupid
06/08/2010 05:31:18 PM
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sorry but your statement was completely ignorant.
06/08/2010 07:27:09 PM
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I will talk as soon as you stop spouting stupid rhetoric and say something relevant
06/08/2010 07:54:09 PM
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Let's just be clear about which amendment is which.
05/08/2010 11:50:57 PM
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but that still ignores intent and expands the law in ways not intnented when it created
06/08/2010 04:53:43 AM
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Yes, no, no, and no.
06/08/2010 05:29:09 AM
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there are serious flaws in your thinking here
06/08/2010 06:18:13 PM
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Your assertions continue to lack support.
06/08/2010 07:23:17 PM
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not all you just refuse to see things you disagree with
06/08/2010 08:36:32 PM
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...said the pot to the kettle
06/08/2010 09:17:28 PM
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yes but a shiny stainless steel pot
09/08/2010 11:21:33 PM
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You continue to be wrong about history and the role of courts.
10/08/2010 01:05:39 AM
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If he's wrong, a lot of law scholars and Supreme Court Justices are wrong.
10/08/2010 01:44:05 AM
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Brown vs. Board of Education, 'nuff said. *NM*
10/08/2010 04:32:37 AM
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Actually, that only proves his point, if I understand correctly. *NM*
10/08/2010 11:11:19 AM
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part oif the problem appears to be you completely missing the point
10/08/2010 01:23:19 PM
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There's a simple way to determine the degree to which that opinion is objective or subjective...
06/08/2010 09:32:21 PM
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Since when is marriage a right? *NM*
05/08/2010 04:11:16 PM
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it may not be a "right"...
05/08/2010 04:22:44 PM
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It's a benefit that is being extended selectively to one set of the populace.
05/08/2010 04:52:52 PM
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Hey, I'm single....
05/08/2010 05:05:41 PM
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That's a specious argument and you know it.
05/08/2010 05:13:17 PM
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A homosexual has every opportunity as well.....
05/08/2010 05:23:56 PM
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Oh quit the bullshit already.
05/08/2010 05:29:15 PM
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Sorry, but what a nonsense.
05/08/2010 09:27:17 PM
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hey that's it, jens! you solved the WHOLE PROBLEM!!!
05/08/2010 11:24:29 PM
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ON TO WORLD HUNGER!
06/08/2010 07:59:51 AM
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LET THEM HAVE CAEK. *NM*
06/08/2010 02:29:56 PM
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Are you sure it's wise to feed people on a lie? *NM*
06/08/2010 02:34:26 PM
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People are fed lies all the time
06/08/2010 09:30:37 PM
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Quite so, but I don't think it's commonly a mainstay of their diet *NM*
06/08/2010 09:50:33 PM
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It is the only thing which is abundant enough for everyone to have some... *NM*
06/08/2010 10:01:44 PM
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I invite you to read the judge's conclusions, linked again inside.
05/08/2010 11:43:44 PM
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Since 1948
06/08/2010 04:01:02 AM
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gah. can. only. see. typo. *NM*
06/08/2010 03:43:21 PM
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I don't see any typo... *NM*
06/08/2010 04:07:18 PM
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I agree
05/08/2010 07:22:17 AM
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And Civil Rights lost the Democrats the South.
05/08/2010 03:44:56 PM
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but it was done by congress passing laws and the president signing those laws
05/08/2010 04:20:19 PM
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I was under the impression that the supreme court had a role in it
05/08/2010 04:31:51 PM
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but the court was not over turning the laws passed by congress
05/08/2010 05:11:06 PM
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No, like in this case, isn't it?
05/08/2010 05:24:19 PM
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I would say that is another case of judicial activism and shows the danger of the practice
05/08/2010 05:43:02 PM
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Hard to believe it's the same governor who said "Gay marriage should be between a man and a woman." *NM*
04/08/2010 11:05:45 PM
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Link to the full court order inside:
04/08/2010 11:43:29 PM
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The judge quoting Scalia in favour of gay marriage is fairly amusing.
04/08/2010 11:50:47 PM
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What page was that on?
05/08/2010 11:25:49 AM
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Nah, it was way above page 109, in the findings of fact somewhere.
05/08/2010 12:37:48 PM
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Oh, that is brilliant.
05/08/2010 01:12:21 PM
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Pretty much.
05/08/2010 01:44:22 PM
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I've always wondered what basis there is for banning necrophilia if "it's disgusting" is invalid.
05/08/2010 01:51:19 PM
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because you cannot give consent when you are dead?
05/08/2010 03:04:46 PM
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what if you give consent while you are still alive?
05/08/2010 03:21:59 PM
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Is it then illegal?
05/08/2010 03:23:46 PM
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given I imagine the pro-necrophilia lobby isn't strong in numbers or influence
05/08/2010 03:33:11 PM
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Re: given I imagine the pro-necrophilia lobby isn't strong in numbers or influence
05/08/2010 03:34:57 PM
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I would think it would be illegal even then
05/08/2010 03:34:31 PM
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Wikipedia to the rescue!
05/08/2010 04:20:15 PM
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you would hope the other states would cover it under improper treatmentof human remains
05/08/2010 07:38:59 PM
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A dead body is just an object, not a person with rights.
05/08/2010 03:27:08 PM
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Yes, but
06/08/2010 08:42:05 AM
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Absolutely not.
06/08/2010 03:21:14 PM
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not to mention necrophilia has a large potential to be hazardous to health.
06/08/2010 09:42:43 PM
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Irrelevant decision.....this was heading to SCOTUS from day 1 *NM*
05/08/2010 12:53:26 AM
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