No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
Isaac Send a noteboard - 10/08/2010 05:25:57 AM
Doesn't reference article 16 of the UDHR, but does articles 1 and 2, which does seem strange. Anyway if we are trying to prove that discrimination based on sexual orientation is against international law I think we just did.
Probably worth mention, the US doesn't appear to have signed that and for that matter many of the signatories don't allow gay marriage either, there's about 10 countries, starting with the netherlands in 2001 that allow it, and two who allow it in some places, the US is one and Mexico is the other, there's a roughly equal number where it carries the death penalty. and there are 192 nations in the UN, so we're not in much need to worry about violations
Anyway the issue on 16 is "Men and Women" since everywhere else it says 'Everyone' 'all' or 'No one' and such, but regardless, the clear spirit, not too mention the standard interpretation, are that gay marriage is not banned nor granted by article 16. Of course the UDHR is so much worthless paper anyway. It tends to get pretty specific too, wasn't written on a napkin, article two has a whole laundry list of "such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status" regarding who the rights apply to. There's also the generally futility of amending it anyway, since it is a non-binding measure, and there is, in article 29. a rather nagging "meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society." which is regularly cited by countries who pay the UHDR lip service. To the best of my knowledge our only violation to date is actually article 16, the marriage clause, since some states kept bans on interracial marriage for a while, and argues that the clause didn't say you had to permit interracial marriage, only that you couldn't deny someone of a given race the right to marry. There's also the article 5 torture clause but that's another issue.
The problem is lots of people go around declaring what something means, so courts decide, and I don't think you have made the case that the US and 181 of 192 other countries are not in violation of article 16.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
Let's ban all Christian Marriage.
07/08/2010 06:36:13 AM
- 1529 Views
Nice satire, but it raises another point for me.
07/08/2010 07:20:49 AM
- 957 Views
That would only be appropriate if Christians wanted to ban secular unions of normal people.
07/08/2010 11:51:29 AM
- 1179 Views
Hey, look! There was a point over there!
07/08/2010 03:46:41 PM
- 991 Views
Who else should make those decisions?
07/08/2010 08:00:39 PM
- 938 Views
I'd totally...
08/08/2010 04:14:15 AM
- 904 Views
I'd totally...
08/08/2010 06:17:30 AM
- 1049 Views
I used to think Joel was the biggest rambler on this site. I am seriously reconsidering.
08/08/2010 05:24:56 AM
- 976 Views
And my assessment of one poster as the most content-poor, non-contributing slug is unchanged
08/08/2010 07:17:02 PM
- 889 Views
*Shakes Head*
08/08/2010 06:23:47 AM
- 858 Views
I highly doubt Cannoli is "scared" of homosexuals *NM*
08/08/2010 06:29:54 AM
- 502 Views
Perhaps not in the physical sense.
08/08/2010 06:35:53 AM
- 952 Views
Re: Perhaps not in the physical sense.
08/08/2010 06:46:56 AM
- 913 Views
Re: *Shakes Head*
08/08/2010 07:43:11 PM
- 905 Views
I still do not see how you think marriage is a "pointless" institution
08/08/2010 08:05:45 PM
- 1004 Views
No, I was referring to same-sex marriage. Real marriage hardly counts as a novelty. *NM*
11/08/2010 02:28:43 PM
- 415 Views
This must be the "thought out reaction" I've heard so much about.
08/08/2010 10:45:59 PM
- 851 Views
You cannot be that stupid.
11/08/2010 03:10:55 PM
- 1135 Views
There's a lot of ridiculous arguments here, but I'll focus on just one of them...
11/08/2010 03:38:05 PM
- 1013 Views
A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
08/08/2010 11:51:24 PM
- 878 Views
Plolygamy and incest are not on the same level of bad.
09/08/2010 11:00:07 AM
- 917 Views
Is that assumption valid?
09/08/2010 11:36:26 AM
- 870 Views
Re: Is that assumption valid?
09/08/2010 11:46:42 AM
- 852 Views
Re: Is that assumption valid?
09/08/2010 12:07:22 PM
- 963 Views
Spoken like someone who does not have to insure an employee's six wives.
11/08/2010 03:11:57 PM
- 994 Views
Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
09/08/2010 11:25:39 AM
- 881 Views
Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
09/08/2010 11:51:50 AM
- 843 Views
Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
09/08/2010 01:18:35 PM
- 938 Views
Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
09/08/2010 02:54:19 PM
- 956 Views
It should be noted again...
09/08/2010 08:59:32 PM
- 983 Views
and how is it not a right?
09/08/2010 09:19:12 PM
- 855 Views
My definition of rights...
09/08/2010 10:47:16 PM
- 982 Views
mmm, but the UN has legally stated marriage as a right.
10/08/2010 02:52:03 AM
- 749 Views
Article 16 probably not a great example
10/08/2010 03:44:04 AM
- 846 Views
You could just as easily move the emphasis...
10/08/2010 04:08:46 AM
- 971 Views
If we need a more specific resolution...
10/08/2010 04:22:12 AM
- 1156 Views
No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
10/08/2010 05:25:57 AM
- 843 Views
Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
10/08/2010 03:04:39 PM
- 1159 Views
That's really a ridiculous stance, you do realize.
10/08/2010 03:23:02 PM
- 810 Views
The point is that marriage IS a right, one which cannot be denied based upon sexual orientation *NM*
10/08/2010 07:04:16 PM
- 673 Views
Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
10/08/2010 03:46:56 PM
- 1036 Views
It doesn't say a man can only marry a woman or vice versa, though.
10/08/2010 04:24:17 AM
- 842 Views
I know, and that's been brought up before. But that's not my point.
10/08/2010 06:09:32 PM
- 837 Views
Re: I know, and that's been brought up before. But that's not my point.
10/08/2010 06:33:56 PM
- 770 Views
It's mentioned as a right in some SC decision quoted in that Walker opinion. *NM*
10/08/2010 06:51:13 PM
- 425 Views
To clarify for you
10/08/2010 05:36:14 AM
- 772 Views
The UNSC is actually the UN's enforcement body...
10/08/2010 07:16:31 PM
- 1217 Views
I'm not sure that I would call the Security Council the 'Enforcement Body'
10/08/2010 08:43:02 PM
- 819 Views
The fact that it is capable of authorizing the use of military force makes it an enforcement body
10/08/2010 10:33:59 PM
- 1081 Views
What the UN thinks is *completely* worthless....
10/08/2010 06:43:15 PM
- 780 Views
Why don't YOU back up your assertion that the right to marry exists? *NM*
11/08/2010 03:16:02 PM
- 471 Views
The actual ruling on Prop 8 specifices marriage as a freedom, not a right.
10/08/2010 12:02:17 AM
- 922 Views
Out of curiosity, what would you say to using the Ninth Amendment, possibly in conjunction...
10/08/2010 12:20:19 AM
- 1001 Views
Note it all you want...
10/08/2010 06:43:53 AM
- 721 Views
No, they seek to expand the terms of the partnership. Homosexuals can & do get married normally *NM*
11/08/2010 03:14:25 PM
- 478 Views
The best one yet.
10/08/2010 07:59:17 PM
- 968 Views
Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
10/08/2010 08:49:24 PM
- 844 Views
Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
10/08/2010 09:03:11 PM
- 950 Views
Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
11/08/2010 04:35:03 PM
- 832 Views
Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
11/08/2010 04:41:23 PM
- 953 Views
Hmm - been a long time since I read my copy of the graphic novel
11/08/2010 05:06:47 PM
- 928 Views
Re: Hmm - been a long time since I read my copy of the graphic novel
11/08/2010 05:09:23 PM
- 917 Views