Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
Isaac Send a noteboard - 09/08/2010 02:54:19 PM
Ah, sounds like you are disagreeing on opinion then - around what is actually a right, what it intails and what, if anything, overrides it.
Not really an opinion thing in this case, more a reminder to people that phrases like "I can say whatever I want to" are totally acceptable in casual conversation but are, of course, absolutely not true, e.g. threats, slander, libel, inciting to riot, perjury, state secrets, causing panics, etc. and when you're engaging in legal conversation those 'finer points' are pretty important, like various people's erroneous thoughts on self-defense laws. If someone wants to say you should never throw the first punch, that's fine, if they are going to say 'legally, whoever throws the first punch is in the wrong and you can do whatever you want, it's all self-defense' then they need to get called on that.
An interesting point in this is that it isn't exactly a ban, just a limit on how far the rights and benefits of marriage should be spread. You can legally have a relationship with as many partners as you like, you're still just going to get the same as a couple do though and the simplest way to do it is to only allow a marriage between two people, since it doesn't involve rewriting a huge volume of laws. Still though, you can be married in religion to multiple partners (people moving to the UK who are married to multiple partners have to nominate one on moving here to be the one who recieves the benefits and rights)
It is a rather tricky affair, partially because the state does have an apparent vested interest in encouraging people to marry and have kids. It's an easy conundrum for me, since I'm libertarian on the issue of marriage and don't think the government should give incentives to marriage in the first place, while it certainly is handy to raise kids and co-habitate with someone you're having sex with, plenty of single parents have roomed with family or friends who also a have kids, I tend to think they should receive the same handy privileges where logically applicable, I also have problems putting all the happy stickers on marriage when people regularly tie the knot for reasons not particularly involved with love. So the 'two loving partners' bit, while icing on the cake, is not to me strictly part of a wedding cake.
It is an old charge against polygamy - not sure it holds true in the same way though (since you can have a polygamous relationship, you just can't marry, so a clear difference there) and I'm not sure if it is actually a true issue now or just an old fear?
It's always hard to get reliable data on something that is banned or horribly against current social norms. End of the day I'm not sure if it matters how true the various assumptions are anyway, I don't approve of casinos, I don't want them outlawed either. Polygamy doesn't actually have to be ethical to be legal, S&M isn't particular ethical, nor is adultery, lying, etc. but they are legal. I would guess though, that polygamy can be functional, but usually won't be, I could say the same about the average pair of 18 year olds tying the knot.
Most of your argument in there really is down to the fact there is a big grey area around exactly where the cut off points are... but then that exsts everywhere (different countries have different laws, after all). It is about balancing the rights of the people (those of having a relationship of their choice against their right to protection)
Pretty much, and people need to remember that it is a balancing act and rarely black and white, once you acknowledge the state has the power to regulate something your are almost always going to start running into grey zones. We just tend to be a little lop-sided on queers, IMO, and distaste or homophobia really shouldn't be a factor one way or another, damn few of us approve of 80 year olds marrying 18 year olds, should we ban that, can we ban that, etc.
I'm slightly lost on what you are arguing with regards to children - same sex couples shouldn't be allowed to marry because there is no risk of children but rather regardless of it. A male-female relationship carries a risk that they will have children - people can lie, doctors can mess up etc.
A risk tends to get carried with everything, a 'reasonable certainty' the people involved won't breed should seem sufficient, but regardless the main point is that a ban for that reason sticks procreation in as a default aspect of marriage, as opposed other forms of legal and business contracts. If banning incest is strictly about preventing f'd up offspring, then that ban shouldn't really exist for those able to show that reasonable precautions have been taken to prevent that. Once you get around to defining marriage, you can almost always find exceptions that still seem legit. More or less why I don't think the government should be in the habit of defining it and thus shouldn't give unique fiscal and legal advantages to it, saves a lot of trouble, IMHO.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
Let's ban all Christian Marriage.
07/08/2010 06:36:13 AM
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Nice satire, but it raises another point for me.
07/08/2010 07:20:49 AM
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That would only be appropriate if Christians wanted to ban secular unions of normal people.
07/08/2010 11:51:29 AM
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Hey, look! There was a point over there!
07/08/2010 03:46:41 PM
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Who else should make those decisions?
07/08/2010 08:00:39 PM
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I'd totally...
08/08/2010 04:14:15 AM
- 911 Views
I'd totally...
08/08/2010 06:17:30 AM
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I used to think Joel was the biggest rambler on this site. I am seriously reconsidering.
08/08/2010 05:24:56 AM
- 981 Views
And my assessment of one poster as the most content-poor, non-contributing slug is unchanged
08/08/2010 07:17:02 PM
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*Shakes Head*
08/08/2010 06:23:47 AM
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I highly doubt Cannoli is "scared" of homosexuals *NM*
08/08/2010 06:29:54 AM
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Perhaps not in the physical sense.
08/08/2010 06:35:53 AM
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Re: Perhaps not in the physical sense.
08/08/2010 06:46:56 AM
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Re: *Shakes Head*
08/08/2010 07:43:11 PM
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I still do not see how you think marriage is a "pointless" institution
08/08/2010 08:05:45 PM
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No, I was referring to same-sex marriage. Real marriage hardly counts as a novelty. *NM*
11/08/2010 02:28:43 PM
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This must be the "thought out reaction" I've heard so much about.
08/08/2010 10:45:59 PM
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You cannot be that stupid.
11/08/2010 03:10:55 PM
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There's a lot of ridiculous arguments here, but I'll focus on just one of them...
11/08/2010 03:38:05 PM
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A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
08/08/2010 11:51:24 PM
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Plolygamy and incest are not on the same level of bad.
09/08/2010 11:00:07 AM
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Is that assumption valid?
09/08/2010 11:36:26 AM
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Re: Is that assumption valid?
09/08/2010 11:46:42 AM
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Re: Is that assumption valid?
09/08/2010 12:07:22 PM
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Spoken like someone who does not have to insure an employee's six wives.
11/08/2010 03:11:57 PM
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Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
09/08/2010 11:25:39 AM
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Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
09/08/2010 11:51:50 AM
- 849 Views
Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
09/08/2010 01:18:35 PM
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Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
09/08/2010 02:54:19 PM
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It should be noted again...
09/08/2010 08:59:32 PM
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and how is it not a right?
09/08/2010 09:19:12 PM
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My definition of rights...
09/08/2010 10:47:16 PM
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mmm, but the UN has legally stated marriage as a right.
10/08/2010 02:52:03 AM
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Article 16 probably not a great example
10/08/2010 03:44:04 AM
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You could just as easily move the emphasis...
10/08/2010 04:08:46 AM
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If we need a more specific resolution...
10/08/2010 04:22:12 AM
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No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
10/08/2010 05:25:57 AM
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Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
10/08/2010 03:04:39 PM
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That's really a ridiculous stance, you do realize.
10/08/2010 03:23:02 PM
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The point is that marriage IS a right, one which cannot be denied based upon sexual orientation *NM*
10/08/2010 07:04:16 PM
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Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
10/08/2010 03:46:56 PM
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It doesn't say a man can only marry a woman or vice versa, though.
10/08/2010 04:24:17 AM
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I know, and that's been brought up before. But that's not my point.
10/08/2010 06:09:32 PM
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Re: I know, and that's been brought up before. But that's not my point.
10/08/2010 06:33:56 PM
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It's mentioned as a right in some SC decision quoted in that Walker opinion. *NM*
10/08/2010 06:51:13 PM
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To clarify for you
10/08/2010 05:36:14 AM
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The UNSC is actually the UN's enforcement body...
10/08/2010 07:16:31 PM
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I'm not sure that I would call the Security Council the 'Enforcement Body'
10/08/2010 08:43:02 PM
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The fact that it is capable of authorizing the use of military force makes it an enforcement body
10/08/2010 10:33:59 PM
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What the UN thinks is *completely* worthless....
10/08/2010 06:43:15 PM
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Why don't YOU back up your assertion that the right to marry exists? *NM*
11/08/2010 03:16:02 PM
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The actual ruling on Prop 8 specifices marriage as a freedom, not a right.
10/08/2010 12:02:17 AM
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Out of curiosity, what would you say to using the Ninth Amendment, possibly in conjunction...
10/08/2010 12:20:19 AM
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Note it all you want...
10/08/2010 06:43:53 AM
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No, they seek to expand the terms of the partnership. Homosexuals can & do get married normally *NM*
11/08/2010 03:14:25 PM
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The best one yet.
10/08/2010 07:59:17 PM
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Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
10/08/2010 08:49:24 PM
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Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
10/08/2010 09:03:11 PM
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Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
11/08/2010 04:35:03 PM
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Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
11/08/2010 04:41:23 PM
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Hmm - been a long time since I read my copy of the graphic novel
11/08/2010 05:06:47 PM
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Re: Hmm - been a long time since I read my copy of the graphic novel
11/08/2010 05:09:23 PM
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