Active Users:1093 Time:23/11/2024 01:20:05 AM
Who else should make those decisions? Cannoli Send a noteboard - 07/08/2010 08:00:39 PM
And you couldn't have missed it harder.
You illustrated it badly. I got your point and rejected it out of hand.

The precedent of allowing "the people" to make decisions concerning the rights of subsets of themselves is a very, very dangerous one. I picked Christianity in this instance because, as a member of the Christian clergy, it would be the most obvious that I was being satirical.

But you, bless your heart, went on to be a perfect example of what I am parodying here by so wonderfully exhibiting your crippling lack of imagination, by failing to see that manipulating public opinion against a single group in the manner of Prop. 8 could just as easily be done to you as it was done to the homosexuals.
Except they are a totally different case. It is not the same thing as a religious group at all. You are artificially categorizing the completely different groups as similar. It's always you arrogant moralists, smug in your own superiority who accuse other people of lacking breadth of vision or open minds, when you are the ones blindly following a knee-jerk set of values, who cannot open your minds enough to see past the very superficial common points to see the real differences in two practices. And if you want to try satire, as I mentioned above, invent a situation that is not the de facto status quo. I myself have purveyed satire on the WoTMB, and as I noted last year, one such series of satires needed to be discontinued. I retold portions of the WoT story in a way designed to inflate and exaggerate the contributions of a character in grandiose, mythic terms, implying that the character's ego was so out of control, she might actually have told the story in this manner, and that her fans go so far overboard in praising her, that they might do likewise. Yet, when the last book came out, the character actually DID praise her own actions in a similar style. I was forced to give up my satire, because it isn't satire when it is simply stating the reality. "A Modest Proposal" would not be remembered if Swift proposed having all Irish land owned by people in other countries, that their inheritances be broken up with preferential acknowledgement of the claims of Anglicized heirs, that food grown in Ireland be confiscated for profit in England, that their religion be harassed and oppressed, and their cultural identity ruthlessly suppressed, and they experience a lower standard of living than a slave in North America. That would not have been satire, because that is what was actually happening.

Finally, claiming that something is "satire" is not a defense against criticism. When your analogy is flawed, your audience has a perfect right to point that out. When it involves misrepresenting an important social issue with real consequences for everyone, then the right to correct you becomes an obligation.

I don't know if you identify as Christian. I do.
Well stop it. We don't need "Christians" like you parroting those tired old slanders about intolerance and war in an inept attempt at satirizing those points of view. Simply repeating the point of view you claim to be opposing is not satire or criticism.

And it is really, really easy to see a law like the one I mentioned get proposed. It would be a travesty of justice, much as you pointed out in your response.

And much like Prop. 8 itself was.
Marriage, or at least what they imagine marriage to be, is not a right. This is a novelty institution that has never been proven to have been legally recognized, no matter what the cultural or societal level of tolerance for homosexuals. Laws allowing or recognizing heterosexual marriage are merely recognizing a de facto situation, and an institution older than human history. Laws recognizing same-sex unions would compel people to acknowledge something that not only goes against their beliefs, but has no widespread practice or tradition to validate it. It's forcing people to act against their beliefs. The people of California (who have these people in their midst and have to deal with them all the time) don't want to be forced to give these absurd relationships the same recognition that naturally occurring, biologically mandated unions which predate known society receive. The reproductive partnership of one male and one female is one of the basic assumptions underlying the organization of nearly every human society or polity. The pairings of same sex couples have no such role, regardless of how harmless or entertaining one believes them to be, and attempts to impose alterations on society to accomodate the extension of privileges to such pairings which have heretofore been part of the accomodation and adaptation of the more common partnerships into the social structure is not only a dangerous and potentially destabilizing act, but is an act of tyranny as well.

The rights and protections guaranteed and protected by a free society are negative - that is, they protect against interference from others. If you disapprove of a particular religion or sort of speech, you are free to abstain from it, or to express your disapproval, but you cannot (or should not be permitted to) prevent others for participating if they so choose. Outlawing religion falls into the latter category, and so does LEGALIZING gay marriage, as both of them involve imposing behaviors on people, in violation of long-standing rights of belief. You are not required to recognize God and you are not required to recognize a same sex partnership. A law that forces you to do either is an iniquitous imposition on personal freedoms.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
Reply to message
Let's ban all Christian Marriage. - 07/08/2010 06:36:13 AM 1533 Views
Nice satire, but it raises another point for me. - 07/08/2010 07:20:49 AM 962 Views
One small problem... - 07/08/2010 08:02:34 AM 981 Views
Re tax. - 07/08/2010 08:47:22 AM 1015 Views
That seems sensible to me. - 09/08/2010 08:13:26 PM 858 Views
Not sure what you mean by "demoted." - 07/08/2010 03:50:02 PM 1016 Views
Nice. *NM* - 07/08/2010 08:58:20 AM 584 Views
That would only be appropriate if Christians wanted to ban secular unions of normal people. - 07/08/2010 11:51:29 AM 1186 Views
Hey, look! There was a point over there! - 07/08/2010 03:46:41 PM 995 Views
Who else should make those decisions? - 07/08/2010 08:00:39 PM 946 Views
I'd totally... - 08/08/2010 04:14:15 AM 911 Views
I'd totally... - 08/08/2010 06:17:30 AM 1057 Views
You'd defend this idiot? *NM* - 08/08/2010 06:40:34 AM 474 Views
Indeed - 08/08/2010 06:43:53 AM 995 Views
I used to think Joel was the biggest rambler on this site. I am seriously reconsidering. - 08/08/2010 05:24:56 AM 981 Views
And my assessment of one poster as the most content-poor, non-contributing slug is unchanged - 08/08/2010 07:17:02 PM 894 Views
Um, ok. *NM* - 10/08/2010 12:48:19 AM 476 Views
*Shakes Head* - 08/08/2010 06:23:47 AM 864 Views
I highly doubt Cannoli is "scared" of homosexuals *NM* - 08/08/2010 06:29:54 AM 504 Views
Perhaps not in the physical sense. - 08/08/2010 06:35:53 AM 958 Views
Re: Perhaps not in the physical sense. - 08/08/2010 06:46:56 AM 919 Views
Gah! You did that on purpose! - 09/08/2010 01:05:13 AM 873 Views
whoops *NM* - 09/08/2010 02:22:49 AM 439 Views
Re: *Shakes Head* - 08/08/2010 07:43:11 PM 910 Views
This must be the "thought out reaction" I've heard so much about. - 08/08/2010 10:45:59 PM 854 Views
You cannot be that stupid. - 11/08/2010 03:10:55 PM 1141 Views
Incorrect. Genders are not treated equally. - 11/08/2010 07:53:00 PM 1228 Views
all you need is enough support to pass an amendment - 08/08/2010 02:46:08 PM 850 Views
A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too - 08/08/2010 11:51:24 PM 885 Views
And what is wrong with polygamy? *NM* - 09/08/2010 10:36:53 AM 476 Views
Did I say there was anything? - 09/08/2010 11:03:10 AM 1002 Views
Plolygamy and incest are not on the same level of bad. - 09/08/2010 11:00:07 AM 923 Views
Is that assumption valid? - 09/08/2010 11:36:26 AM 876 Views
Re: Is that assumption valid? - 09/08/2010 11:46:42 AM 858 Views
Re: Is that assumption valid? - 09/08/2010 12:07:22 PM 968 Views
Not really - 09/08/2010 01:20:46 PM 827 Views
Re: Not really - 09/08/2010 01:27:04 PM 957 Views
Re: Not really - 09/08/2010 02:14:43 PM 839 Views
Re: Not really - 09/08/2010 03:06:31 PM 983 Views
Spoken like someone who does not have to insure an employee's six wives. - 11/08/2010 03:11:57 PM 999 Views
... - 11/08/2010 03:22:50 PM 878 Views
Mmm, but when you're strictly discussing marriage - 09/08/2010 06:13:30 PM 1014 Views
Re: Mmm, but when you're strictly discussing marriage - 10/08/2010 01:24:06 AM 824 Views
Now I think about it, I'm not sure. - 10/08/2010 04:09:43 PM 939 Views
Re: Now I think about it, I'm not sure. - 10/08/2010 06:12:39 PM 827 Views
Great post Danny - 09/08/2010 08:22:27 PM 694 Views
It should be noted again... - 09/08/2010 08:59:32 PM 989 Views
and how is it not a right? - 09/08/2010 09:19:12 PM 863 Views
My definition of rights... - 09/08/2010 10:47:16 PM 989 Views
mmm, but the UN has legally stated marriage as a right. - 10/08/2010 02:52:03 AM 754 Views
+1 - 10/08/2010 03:11:22 AM 1040 Views
Article 16 probably not a great example - 10/08/2010 03:44:04 AM 852 Views
You could just as easily move the emphasis... - 10/08/2010 04:08:46 AM 976 Views
If we need a more specific resolution... - 10/08/2010 04:22:12 AM 1160 Views
It doesn't say a man can only marry a woman or vice versa, though. - 10/08/2010 04:24:17 AM 851 Views
It also doesn't say they can - 10/08/2010 04:41:18 AM 856 Views
You're missing the point. It's not about gay marriage. - 10/08/2010 11:20:59 AM 844 Views
No, I got that, I'm pointing out how it does so - 10/08/2010 01:47:00 PM 869 Views
To clarify for you - 10/08/2010 05:36:14 AM 777 Views
The UNSC is actually the UN's enforcement body... - 10/08/2010 07:16:31 PM 1222 Views
What the UN thinks is *completely* worthless.... - 10/08/2010 06:43:15 PM 785 Views
and the Constitution dictates nothing about marriage. *NM* - 10/08/2010 11:46:24 PM 457 Views
That means it is up to the people. And they say "No." *NM* - 11/08/2010 03:13:12 PM 462 Views
No, but it does dictate things about rights and discrimination - 12/08/2010 03:48:02 PM 1031 Views
The actual ruling on Prop 8 specifices marriage as a freedom, not a right. - 10/08/2010 12:02:17 AM 930 Views
Out of curiosity, what would you say to using the Ninth Amendment, possibly in conjunction... - 10/08/2010 12:20:19 AM 1006 Views
I agree - 10/08/2010 06:11:19 PM 733 Views
Yeah but this can't be used to prove that it IS a right... - 10/08/2010 07:30:57 PM 1085 Views
Note it all you want... - 10/08/2010 06:43:53 AM 726 Views
The best one yet. - 10/08/2010 07:59:17 PM 973 Views
Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane - 10/08/2010 08:49:24 PM 849 Views
Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane - 10/08/2010 09:03:11 PM 957 Views
Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane - 11/08/2010 04:35:03 PM 838 Views
Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane - 11/08/2010 04:41:23 PM 960 Views
Hmm - been a long time since I read my copy of the graphic novel - 11/08/2010 05:06:47 PM 936 Views

Reply to Message