Active Users:478 Time:21/09/2024 03:19:41 AM
not all you just refuse to see things you disagree with random thoughts Send a noteboard - 06/08/2010 08:36:32 PM
would it be legal for airlines to charge more for blacks?

It would not, but the illegality of this would not be based on the 14th Amendment, which is my point.


That is because it would deal with the direct issue 14th was created to deal with, which is my point. If the 14 can be applied to being over wieght then it would offer the same protection to overwieght people as it does to minorites. This is prety simple concept here and I am not sure why you are having difiiculty with it. You claimed the 14th wouldn't apply to airlines now you agree that is it does but claim I am not supporting my argument. I think you may not understand the concept of supporting an argument.

If the 14 was passed a few decades ago it might be valid to use it to strike down old laws but since it is about 150 years old I don't believe it is valid for judges now redefine it to mean what they would like it to mean. As you mentioned there is an amendment process and that processes isn't for judges to simply decide old amendments mean new things. The role of the courts is not to change society but to ensure that changes are enacted in accordance with the constitution. Anytime the courts are initiating the change their actions are suspect.

Everyone reinterprets the Constitution all the time. Should the 2nd Amendment be used to justify allowing personal ownership of assault weapons, despite the fact that nothing remotely as powerful existed when it was created? Should the 1st Amendment be used to justify removing limits on corporate contributions to political campaigns by claiming that money is speech? Should "free exercise of religion" include freedom from religion as well?


The second amendment was written to allow civilians to arm themselves the second was written to allow for the free expression of political point of views. In neither case has the courts changed the intent of the law they have merely clarified it to come in line with changing technology. There were no assault weapons when those amendments were passed and giant corporations did not get involved in directly in campaigns but there were homosexuals. If the intent had been to provide protection to homosexuals as a protected group they would been a record of that being discussed at the time.

The Constitution is a living document. I name interpretations with which I disagree and with which I agree, but the fact remains that this judge is far from an anomalous case in making one. In this specific case, both Due Process and Equal Protection are phrased very broadly and it's not at all a stretch to apply them.


It is because the 14th is written so broadly that we have to cautious of how much it is allowed to expand. It is written so broadly that the courts can use it to justify virtually any actions.

You are the one who is showing a serious lack of understanding of how checks and balance works. Judges should not be create laws or change existing laws to meet their personal ideal of justice and that is what is happening here. A judge wants to change a law to make something legal that has been illegal for virtually the entire history of the nation. This is a major social change for our nation. It is a change I support but it is still and major social change and the check and balance system is designed so that no single branch of government acting alone can enact major social changes but instead require all branches of government acting together. In other words major social should require consent from the people not the will of and rightly or wrongly that will does not exist right now. Supporters of gay rights like to sight the civil rights movement as an example I think that is often valid but you have to look at the entire movement. Civil rights did not move forward until we had a president a legislature and courts that was willing to move it forward. That happened because enough people were willing to vote for pro-civil right candidates. If the courts had tried to act alone they would have failed.

To get true change it requires not only all the branches of federal government to act together but for the states to participate as well. The federal government began the push for civil rights but it was not until the states became involved that we start seeing real change and the few hold states were forced to change eventually as well. Not all the states went along of course but the Jim Crow states were in the minority. How many states have passed legislation allowing same sex marriage?

Currently, gay marriage is legal in 5 states (Connecticut, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Vermont) plus Washington, D.C. It has briefly been legal in Maine and California. New York, Rhode Island, and Maryland recognize same-sex marriages from other states but don't perform them.


And in how many of those states was it done through legislative action?

The United States is supposed to have a principled democracy (democratic republic) guided by the Constitution. This means that our system should not be accurately described as "majority rule," but as "majority rule with minority rights." The rights and freedoms of minorities must be protected for our system of government to remain legitimate, and the judicial branch acts, as it is intended, as a check on the activities of the other branches when they threaten that legitimacy by acting unconstitutionally.


And the other branches have to keep the judicial branch in check and not allow them to create which ever laws they see fit and can justify under broadly worded passages in the constitutions by applying them in ways that are clearly outside of the intent it was created for. Sadly we don’t have much a check in that regard outside of simply doing what Jackson did.

Unquantifiable musing about "big social changes" needing to be done "gradually" just doesn't make an impact when placed against the fundamental foundation of our nation's government.


Sorry but that is horse shit. The country is over two hundred years old and suddenly gay marriage is a fundamental part over nation’s government. I didn’t say large change had to be done gradually I said it has to be done with some level of consensus and the more the consensus the faster and more affective the change. That sort of change often takes time but that is incidental not required.

Also, your continued assertion that the judge is trying to "change the law" to meet his "personal idea of justice" shows nothing more than that you still haven't read the ruling. If you can point to specific passages indicating the judge is relying on his personal opinion above an objective interpretation of the facts and evidence, do so. Otherwise, quit it with the unsubstantiated claims.


Sorry but no I don’t have to dissect a legal opinion that is pages and pages long to believe that a gay judge from San Francisco who decides that the 14th amendment makes it unconstitutional for states to ban gay marriage is acting on his personal belief and not on the law. I am sure he is a brilliant man and his findings are well documented and supported but that does not change the fact that he is using his place on the bench to bring social change. If I wan't to make an indepth argument about this ruling it would make sense for me to dig deep into his ruling but I am making a briader argument then that.
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Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional - 04/08/2010 10:40:50 PM 1353 Views
Thank God. *NM* - 04/08/2010 10:52:30 PM 378 Views
Amen. *NM* - 05/08/2010 02:09:24 AM 433 Views
Good news, but as the article says, it'll go all the way to the SC. - 04/08/2010 10:55:58 PM 707 Views
So then is that how we do it? - 04/08/2010 11:01:19 PM 829 Views
Of course. - 04/08/2010 11:04:59 PM 740 Views
His point was - 04/08/2010 11:40:14 PM 885 Views
Yeah but: What Ghavrel said below *NM* - 05/08/2010 08:01:02 AM 430 Views
And again... - 05/08/2010 06:08:56 PM 584 Views
well that is sort of the idea of how democracy works - 04/08/2010 11:06:57 PM 718 Views
I'm not the one who came up with the referendum system, you do realize. - 04/08/2010 11:11:13 PM 731 Views
The referendum system, in my opinion, has been a failure, especially in CA. - 04/08/2010 11:46:21 PM 810 Views
democracy has been a failure in CA. - 05/08/2010 02:42:21 PM 600 Views
No. It just shows the problems of a crazy electorate. - 05/08/2010 03:29:21 PM 713 Views
I think you made my point *NM* - 05/08/2010 03:35:00 PM 398 Views
About Californians being crazy, yes. *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:53:32 PM 371 Views
we vote fro way to much crap in general - 05/08/2010 02:41:19 PM 660 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 05/08/2010 04:11:34 PM 651 Views
my one recent dealing with our criminal justice - 05/08/2010 04:25:30 PM 691 Views
There are certain things that should not be decided by a vote... - 05/08/2010 02:02:45 AM 723 Views
I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular. - 05/08/2010 02:17:24 AM 779 Views
Re: I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular. - 05/08/2010 10:46:54 AM 769 Views
I understand it. - 05/08/2010 03:06:40 PM 755 Views
I know you don't support proposition 8 - 05/08/2010 03:29:34 PM 742 Views
- 05/08/2010 03:34:01 PM 782 Views
But that is just simplistic and silly to complain about when it is a long standing possibility - 05/08/2010 03:46:59 PM 661 Views
Oh, ees it? - 05/08/2010 04:07:39 PM 802 Views
Well they knew the rules before they started the whole thing - 05/08/2010 04:12:33 PM 640 Views
Why would you complain if you won? - 05/08/2010 04:15:20 PM 727 Views
You could recognise that you won by the system working in a way you don't like? - 05/08/2010 04:23:58 PM 612 Views
I'm sure that happens, in general. - 06/08/2010 02:43:18 PM 599 Views
It seems to happen a lot nowadays - 06/08/2010 03:06:33 PM 632 Views
instead it should be decided by judges who answer to no one? *NM* - 05/08/2010 07:12:59 AM 385 Views
The same judges who upheld our private right to bear arms. - 05/08/2010 02:09:07 PM 757 Views
not when judges stop using the Constitution - 05/08/2010 02:30:51 PM 733 Views
Sexual preference is not the right being protected. - 05/08/2010 03:22:04 PM 803 Views
I know that the 14th amendment is routinely used in ways it was never intended. - 05/08/2010 05:25:07 PM 711 Views
I realize that, but it is ultimately a good thing. - 05/08/2010 05:31:19 PM 784 Views
I am really on the fence a bit on the whole issue - 05/08/2010 06:00:59 PM 726 Views
I generally agree with you. - 05/08/2010 06:33:56 PM 745 Views
let's take away the citizenship of all black people if that's the way you think - 05/08/2010 09:06:23 PM 641 Views
Come now lets not be stupid - 06/08/2010 05:31:18 PM 610 Views
sorry but your statement was completely ignorant. - 06/08/2010 07:27:09 PM 725 Views
I will talk as soon as you stop spouting stupid rhetoric and say something relevant - 06/08/2010 07:54:09 PM 691 Views
bullshit. you will personally attack me no matter what i say. - 07/08/2010 02:04:04 PM 738 Views
Let's just be clear about which amendment is which. - 05/08/2010 11:50:57 PM 608 Views
but that still ignores intent and expands the law in ways not intnented when it created - 06/08/2010 04:53:43 AM 668 Views
Yes, no, no, and no. - 06/08/2010 05:29:09 AM 700 Views
there are serious flaws in your thinking here - 06/08/2010 06:18:13 PM 781 Views
Your assertions continue to lack support. - 06/08/2010 07:23:17 PM 809 Views
not all you just refuse to see things you disagree with - 06/08/2010 08:36:32 PM 775 Views
...said the pot to the kettle - 06/08/2010 09:17:28 PM 847 Views
yes but a shiny stainless steel pot - 09/08/2010 11:21:33 PM 893 Views
You continue to be wrong about history and the role of courts. - 10/08/2010 01:05:39 AM 1236 Views
If he's wrong, a lot of law scholars and Supreme Court Justices are wrong. - 10/08/2010 01:44:05 AM 696 Views
Brown vs. Board of Education, 'nuff said. *NM* - 10/08/2010 04:32:37 AM 381 Views
part oif the problem appears to be you completely missing the point - 10/08/2010 01:23:19 PM 907 Views
let my simplify my argument - 10/08/2010 01:42:47 PM 613 Views
Since when is marriage a right? *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:11:16 PM 371 Views
it may not be a "right"... - 05/08/2010 04:22:44 PM 644 Views
This is where the debate comes into play.... - 05/08/2010 05:04:08 PM 658 Views
How much would it change the debate if it was nurture, really? - 05/08/2010 09:48:22 PM 677 Views
except this is not merely a matter of changing society - 05/08/2010 11:18:48 PM 720 Views
1948. *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:50:30 PM 367 Views
It's a benefit that is being extended selectively to one set of the populace. - 05/08/2010 04:52:52 PM 722 Views
Hey, I'm single.... - 05/08/2010 05:05:41 PM 638 Views
That's a specious argument and you know it. - 05/08/2010 05:13:17 PM 711 Views
A homosexual has every opportunity as well..... - 05/08/2010 05:23:56 PM 659 Views
Oh quit the bullshit already. - 05/08/2010 05:29:15 PM 860 Views
Slow your role... - 05/08/2010 09:08:54 PM 761 Views
Your religious beliefs have 100% to do with your position. - 05/08/2010 09:43:23 PM 806 Views
Sorry, but what a nonsense. - 05/08/2010 09:27:17 PM 626 Views
hey that's it, jens! you solved the WHOLE PROBLEM!!! - 05/08/2010 11:24:29 PM 758 Views
ON TO WORLD HUNGER! - 06/08/2010 07:59:51 AM 638 Views
LET THEM HAVE CAEK. *NM* - 06/08/2010 02:29:56 PM 353 Views
Are you sure it's wise to feed people on a lie? *NM* - 06/08/2010 02:34:26 PM 443 Views
People are fed lies all the time - 06/08/2010 09:30:37 PM 635 Views
I agree with you - 05/08/2010 05:06:40 PM 693 Views
That's not valid. - 05/08/2010 05:26:50 PM 705 Views
I invite you to read the judge's conclusions, linked again inside. - 05/08/2010 11:43:44 PM 744 Views
Since 1948 - 06/08/2010 04:01:02 AM 844 Views
gah. can. only. see. typo. *NM* - 06/08/2010 03:43:21 PM 341 Views
I don't see any typo... *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:07:18 PM 398 Views
Open the link. *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:47:04 PM 488 Views
Oh, right. Yeah, that does kinda detract from things. *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:48:47 PM 377 Views
I agree - 05/08/2010 07:22:17 AM 718 Views
And Civil Rights lost the Democrats the South. - 05/08/2010 03:44:56 PM 728 Views
but it was done by congress passing laws and the president signing those laws - 05/08/2010 04:20:19 PM 677 Views
uhm, what? - 05/08/2010 04:24:43 PM 667 Views
those were mostly rulings up holding laws not stiking them down - 05/08/2010 05:05:15 PM 734 Views
I was under the impression that the supreme court had a role in it - 05/08/2010 04:31:51 PM 656 Views
but the court was not over turning the laws passed by congress - 05/08/2010 05:11:06 PM 699 Views
No, like in this case, isn't it? - 05/08/2010 05:24:19 PM 648 Views
I would say that is another case of judicial activism and shows the danger of the practice - 05/08/2010 05:43:02 PM 611 Views
Which one is? I imagine from different view points both are. - 06/08/2010 10:34:11 AM 616 Views
The law wasn't constitutional. - 07/08/2010 06:17:04 AM 653 Views
well it will take a higher court to decide that - 09/08/2010 10:46:15 PM 681 Views
Hard to believe it's the same governor who said "Gay marriage should be between a man and a woman." *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:05:45 PM 456 Views
Or "Iff it bleeds we can kill itt!" *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:14:45 PM 430 Views
Another step in the right direction. *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:08:15 PM 450 Views
Link to the full court order inside: - 04/08/2010 11:43:29 PM 836 Views
The judge quoting Scalia in favour of gay marriage is fairly amusing. - 04/08/2010 11:50:47 PM 714 Views
What page was that on? - 05/08/2010 11:25:49 AM 632 Views
Nah, it was way above page 109, in the findings of fact somewhere. - 05/08/2010 12:37:48 PM 736 Views
Oh, that is brilliant. - 05/08/2010 01:12:21 PM 640 Views
Pretty much. - 05/08/2010 01:44:22 PM 770 Views
I've always wondered what basis there is for banning necrophilia if "it's disgusting" is invalid. - 05/08/2010 01:51:19 PM 714 Views
because you cannot give consent when you are dead? - 05/08/2010 03:04:46 PM 704 Views
what if you give consent while you are still alive? - 05/08/2010 03:21:59 PM 804 Views
Is it then illegal? - 05/08/2010 03:23:46 PM 723 Views
I would think it would be illegal even then - 05/08/2010 03:34:31 PM 739 Views
Wikipedia to the rescue! - 05/08/2010 04:20:15 PM 863 Views
A dead body is just an object, not a person with rights. - 05/08/2010 03:27:08 PM 724 Views
Yes, but - 06/08/2010 08:42:05 AM 680 Views
Absolutely not. - 06/08/2010 03:21:14 PM 731 Views
not to mention necrophilia has a large potential to be hazardous to health. - 06/08/2010 09:42:43 PM 776 Views
That was a very well written judgement. - 05/08/2010 11:24:38 AM 731 Views
- 05/08/2010 12:10:02 AM 728 Views
Totally agree. - 05/08/2010 01:01:42 PM 769 Views
+1 *NM* - 05/08/2010 03:42:08 PM 396 Views
Irrelevant decision.....this was heading to SCOTUS from day 1 *NM* - 05/08/2010 12:53:26 AM 410 Views

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