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Your religious beliefs have 100% to do with your position. Tom Send a noteboard - 05/08/2010 09:43:23 PM
Your views are grounded neither in science, nor logic, nor fact. I bring up Creationism because that, like your stand on gay marriage, is based 100% on blind faith and not one whit on science, logic or fact. It is entirely pertinent to the discussion.

For the record, I find it laughable that two or three sentences in the New Testament (some of them of questionable authorship in the eyes of modern Biblical scholars) are enough to condemn an entire segment of the population to live as second-class citizens. Jesus never mentioned homosexuality once, nor did he preach the sort of intolerance that many churches established in His name do. This is no different than the way that churches supported slavery and then, after the Civil War, laws against miscegenation and equal rights for blacks on the basis of a few sentences in the Bible. More was said by St. Paul about how women should always wear hats in church than about homosexuality, but you don't see women wearing hats in church. It's just another example of being selective in faith.

And yes, I do think that race and sexual identity can be equated. People are killed, often after being brutally tortured, because of their sexuality and their sexual identity. I think you pointed out to me that I should avoid the words "sexual preference" for now because they imply a choice. Science has shown that it is highly unlikely there is a choice.

I am not a biologist and do not have access to a full research library. I will ask a friend who has a Ph.D. in biology to supply me with some good citations for the work you are requesting. Until then, I will not let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and will cite the studies which, according to Wikipedia, have yielded positive results.

They are:

Hershberger, Scott L. 2001. Biological Factors in the Development of Sexual Orientation. Pp. 27–51 in Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Identities and Youth: Psychological Perspectives, edited by Anthony R. D’Augelli and Charlotte J. Patterson. Oxford, New York: Oxford University Press. Quoted in Bearman and Bruckner, 2002.

Bailey JM, Dunne MP, Martin NG (March 2000). "Genetic and environmental influences on sexual orientation and its correlates in an Australian twin sample". J Pers Soc Psychol 78 (3): 524–36. doi:10.1037/0022-3514.78.3.524. PMID 10743878. http://content.apa.org/journals/psp/78/3/524.

Bocklandt S, Horvath S, Vilain E, Hamer DH (February 2006). "Extreme skewing of X chromosome inactivation in mothers of homosexual men". Hum. Genet. 118 (6): 691–4. doi:10.1007/s00439-005-0119-4. PMID 16369763. http://repositories.cdlib.org/postprints/1413.

Blanchard R, Klassen P (April 1997). "H-Y antigen and homosexuality in men". J. Theor. Biol. 185 (3): 373–8. doi:10.1006/jtbi.1996.0315. PMID 9156085.

Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF (2010). "Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation". Endocr Dev 17: 22–35. doi:10.1159/000262525. PMID 19955753.




That's an explicit denial of the existence of homosexuals. Science has fairly convincingly proven that homosexuality is a biological condition, not a choice. I wouldn't expect someone like you, who believes crazy myths about a 7-day creation, to understand that, but you are making a pernicious argument in bad faith and you know it damn well.

Try saying "Blacks have every opportunity to go to school so they shouldn't need to go to the same ones as whites" and see how far that logic gets you.


Prove it. Show me a respected scientific journal which states the biologically proven trigger which initiates homosexuality. I remember that I got into this debate with Chorabliss one time, and he was unable to show me said journal article. He sent me a link regarding the topic which was more along the lines of a psychological journal article on how to deal with homosexuality. Even in that article, it very clearly said that there is the idea that homosexuality could have a biological root, but that it is not proven. The article went on and on about how to psycholocial aspects of homosexuality and individuals and their interaction within their own minds and their interactions with others.

I find it interesting then that you bring up my creation views and everything also. *heh* I'm also one of those crazies who believes that abortion is wrong because its killing an innocent person. Does that matter in this debate? I'm also one who doesn't like curry when prepared in an Indian dish, but can tolerate it with Thai food. Does that matter? I'm also a firm believer that everone is deserving of health care, but not entitled to it. Does that matter? So then why do you phrase my belief system in such a way as to discredit my viewpoint? Talk about not cool.

And you know very well that there is a world of difference between someone's race and someone's sexual preference.

~Jeordam
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional - 04/08/2010 10:40:50 PM 1353 Views
Thank God. *NM* - 04/08/2010 10:52:30 PM 378 Views
Amen. *NM* - 05/08/2010 02:09:24 AM 433 Views
Good news, but as the article says, it'll go all the way to the SC. - 04/08/2010 10:55:58 PM 709 Views
So then is that how we do it? - 04/08/2010 11:01:19 PM 829 Views
Of course. - 04/08/2010 11:04:59 PM 740 Views
His point was - 04/08/2010 11:40:14 PM 885 Views
Yeah but: What Ghavrel said below *NM* - 05/08/2010 08:01:02 AM 430 Views
And again... - 05/08/2010 06:08:56 PM 585 Views
well that is sort of the idea of how democracy works - 04/08/2010 11:06:57 PM 719 Views
I'm not the one who came up with the referendum system, you do realize. - 04/08/2010 11:11:13 PM 731 Views
The referendum system, in my opinion, has been a failure, especially in CA. - 04/08/2010 11:46:21 PM 810 Views
democracy has been a failure in CA. - 05/08/2010 02:42:21 PM 600 Views
No. It just shows the problems of a crazy electorate. - 05/08/2010 03:29:21 PM 713 Views
I think you made my point *NM* - 05/08/2010 03:35:00 PM 398 Views
About Californians being crazy, yes. *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:53:32 PM 371 Views
we vote fro way to much crap in general - 05/08/2010 02:41:19 PM 660 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 05/08/2010 04:11:34 PM 651 Views
my one recent dealing with our criminal justice - 05/08/2010 04:25:30 PM 691 Views
There are certain things that should not be decided by a vote... - 05/08/2010 02:02:45 AM 723 Views
I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular. - 05/08/2010 02:17:24 AM 779 Views
Re: I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular. - 05/08/2010 10:46:54 AM 770 Views
I understand it. - 05/08/2010 03:06:40 PM 755 Views
I know you don't support proposition 8 - 05/08/2010 03:29:34 PM 742 Views
- 05/08/2010 03:34:01 PM 782 Views
But that is just simplistic and silly to complain about when it is a long standing possibility - 05/08/2010 03:46:59 PM 661 Views
Oh, ees it? - 05/08/2010 04:07:39 PM 802 Views
Well they knew the rules before they started the whole thing - 05/08/2010 04:12:33 PM 640 Views
Why would you complain if you won? - 05/08/2010 04:15:20 PM 727 Views
You could recognise that you won by the system working in a way you don't like? - 05/08/2010 04:23:58 PM 612 Views
I'm sure that happens, in general. - 06/08/2010 02:43:18 PM 599 Views
It seems to happen a lot nowadays - 06/08/2010 03:06:33 PM 632 Views
instead it should be decided by judges who answer to no one? *NM* - 05/08/2010 07:12:59 AM 385 Views
The same judges who upheld our private right to bear arms. - 05/08/2010 02:09:07 PM 758 Views
not when judges stop using the Constitution - 05/08/2010 02:30:51 PM 734 Views
Sexual preference is not the right being protected. - 05/08/2010 03:22:04 PM 803 Views
I know that the 14th amendment is routinely used in ways it was never intended. - 05/08/2010 05:25:07 PM 711 Views
I realize that, but it is ultimately a good thing. - 05/08/2010 05:31:19 PM 784 Views
I am really on the fence a bit on the whole issue - 05/08/2010 06:00:59 PM 726 Views
I generally agree with you. - 05/08/2010 06:33:56 PM 745 Views
let's take away the citizenship of all black people if that's the way you think - 05/08/2010 09:06:23 PM 641 Views
Come now lets not be stupid - 06/08/2010 05:31:18 PM 610 Views
sorry but your statement was completely ignorant. - 06/08/2010 07:27:09 PM 726 Views
I will talk as soon as you stop spouting stupid rhetoric and say something relevant - 06/08/2010 07:54:09 PM 691 Views
bullshit. you will personally attack me no matter what i say. - 07/08/2010 02:04:04 PM 738 Views
Let's just be clear about which amendment is which. - 05/08/2010 11:50:57 PM 608 Views
but that still ignores intent and expands the law in ways not intnented when it created - 06/08/2010 04:53:43 AM 668 Views
Yes, no, no, and no. - 06/08/2010 05:29:09 AM 701 Views
there are serious flaws in your thinking here - 06/08/2010 06:18:13 PM 781 Views
Your assertions continue to lack support. - 06/08/2010 07:23:17 PM 809 Views
not all you just refuse to see things you disagree with - 06/08/2010 08:36:32 PM 775 Views
...said the pot to the kettle - 06/08/2010 09:17:28 PM 847 Views
yes but a shiny stainless steel pot - 09/08/2010 11:21:33 PM 893 Views
You continue to be wrong about history and the role of courts. - 10/08/2010 01:05:39 AM 1236 Views
If he's wrong, a lot of law scholars and Supreme Court Justices are wrong. - 10/08/2010 01:44:05 AM 696 Views
Brown vs. Board of Education, 'nuff said. *NM* - 10/08/2010 04:32:37 AM 381 Views
part oif the problem appears to be you completely missing the point - 10/08/2010 01:23:19 PM 907 Views
let my simplify my argument - 10/08/2010 01:42:47 PM 613 Views
Since when is marriage a right? *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:11:16 PM 371 Views
it may not be a "right"... - 05/08/2010 04:22:44 PM 644 Views
This is where the debate comes into play.... - 05/08/2010 05:04:08 PM 658 Views
How much would it change the debate if it was nurture, really? - 05/08/2010 09:48:22 PM 677 Views
except this is not merely a matter of changing society - 05/08/2010 11:18:48 PM 721 Views
1948. *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:50:30 PM 367 Views
It's a benefit that is being extended selectively to one set of the populace. - 05/08/2010 04:52:52 PM 722 Views
Hey, I'm single.... - 05/08/2010 05:05:41 PM 638 Views
That's a specious argument and you know it. - 05/08/2010 05:13:17 PM 711 Views
A homosexual has every opportunity as well..... - 05/08/2010 05:23:56 PM 659 Views
Oh quit the bullshit already. - 05/08/2010 05:29:15 PM 860 Views
Slow your role... - 05/08/2010 09:08:54 PM 762 Views
Your religious beliefs have 100% to do with your position. - 05/08/2010 09:43:23 PM 807 Views
Sorry, but what a nonsense. - 05/08/2010 09:27:17 PM 626 Views
hey that's it, jens! you solved the WHOLE PROBLEM!!! - 05/08/2010 11:24:29 PM 758 Views
ON TO WORLD HUNGER! - 06/08/2010 07:59:51 AM 638 Views
LET THEM HAVE CAEK. *NM* - 06/08/2010 02:29:56 PM 353 Views
Are you sure it's wise to feed people on a lie? *NM* - 06/08/2010 02:34:26 PM 443 Views
People are fed lies all the time - 06/08/2010 09:30:37 PM 635 Views
I agree with you - 05/08/2010 05:06:40 PM 693 Views
That's not valid. - 05/08/2010 05:26:50 PM 705 Views
I invite you to read the judge's conclusions, linked again inside. - 05/08/2010 11:43:44 PM 744 Views
Since 1948 - 06/08/2010 04:01:02 AM 844 Views
gah. can. only. see. typo. *NM* - 06/08/2010 03:43:21 PM 341 Views
I don't see any typo... *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:07:18 PM 398 Views
Open the link. *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:47:04 PM 488 Views
Oh, right. Yeah, that does kinda detract from things. *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:48:47 PM 377 Views
I agree - 05/08/2010 07:22:17 AM 718 Views
And Civil Rights lost the Democrats the South. - 05/08/2010 03:44:56 PM 728 Views
but it was done by congress passing laws and the president signing those laws - 05/08/2010 04:20:19 PM 677 Views
uhm, what? - 05/08/2010 04:24:43 PM 667 Views
those were mostly rulings up holding laws not stiking them down - 05/08/2010 05:05:15 PM 734 Views
I was under the impression that the supreme court had a role in it - 05/08/2010 04:31:51 PM 656 Views
but the court was not over turning the laws passed by congress - 05/08/2010 05:11:06 PM 700 Views
No, like in this case, isn't it? - 05/08/2010 05:24:19 PM 648 Views
I would say that is another case of judicial activism and shows the danger of the practice - 05/08/2010 05:43:02 PM 612 Views
Which one is? I imagine from different view points both are. - 06/08/2010 10:34:11 AM 616 Views
The law wasn't constitutional. - 07/08/2010 06:17:04 AM 653 Views
well it will take a higher court to decide that - 09/08/2010 10:46:15 PM 681 Views
Hard to believe it's the same governor who said "Gay marriage should be between a man and a woman." *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:05:45 PM 456 Views
Or "Iff it bleeds we can kill itt!" *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:14:45 PM 430 Views
Another step in the right direction. *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:08:15 PM 450 Views
Link to the full court order inside: - 04/08/2010 11:43:29 PM 836 Views
The judge quoting Scalia in favour of gay marriage is fairly amusing. - 04/08/2010 11:50:47 PM 714 Views
What page was that on? - 05/08/2010 11:25:49 AM 633 Views
Nah, it was way above page 109, in the findings of fact somewhere. - 05/08/2010 12:37:48 PM 736 Views
Oh, that is brilliant. - 05/08/2010 01:12:21 PM 640 Views
Pretty much. - 05/08/2010 01:44:22 PM 770 Views
I've always wondered what basis there is for banning necrophilia if "it's disgusting" is invalid. - 05/08/2010 01:51:19 PM 714 Views
because you cannot give consent when you are dead? - 05/08/2010 03:04:46 PM 704 Views
what if you give consent while you are still alive? - 05/08/2010 03:21:59 PM 805 Views
Is it then illegal? - 05/08/2010 03:23:46 PM 723 Views
I would think it would be illegal even then - 05/08/2010 03:34:31 PM 739 Views
Wikipedia to the rescue! - 05/08/2010 04:20:15 PM 863 Views
A dead body is just an object, not a person with rights. - 05/08/2010 03:27:08 PM 725 Views
Yes, but - 06/08/2010 08:42:05 AM 680 Views
Absolutely not. - 06/08/2010 03:21:14 PM 731 Views
not to mention necrophilia has a large potential to be hazardous to health. - 06/08/2010 09:42:43 PM 776 Views
That was a very well written judgement. - 05/08/2010 11:24:38 AM 731 Views
- 05/08/2010 12:10:02 AM 728 Views
Totally agree. - 05/08/2010 01:01:42 PM 769 Views
+1 *NM* - 05/08/2010 03:42:08 PM 396 Views
Irrelevant decision.....this was heading to SCOTUS from day 1 *NM* - 05/08/2010 12:53:26 AM 411 Views

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