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This is where the debate comes into play.... Jeordam Send a noteboard - 05/08/2010 05:04:08 PM
but, as Tom has pointed out, it's a socioeconomic and legal benefit being denied one group but given to another for no sound legal reasoning. Remember, you don't have a right to sit where you want on a bus, either, but that doesn't mean it's okay to tell someone where to sit based on factors such as race and gender. From a legal standpoint, how is sexual preference any different?


As so many have stated over the last few years (and even in this thread), that this is akin to the civil rights movement. That this entire debate is about giving equal rights to equal people. As I said...marriage isn't a right. Socioeconomic and legal benefits are not rights. What about me? I am single, but my brother lives with me? Why can't we have those same tax breaks?

You mentioned race and gender as being factors upon which people are differentiated. Those are factors which they can neither control nor have a choice over. Sexual preference, much as you stated, is just that....a preference. There is no proven genetic component which triggers homosexual behavior. On the contrary, it seems to be much more of a nurture component which changes the debate completely.

Ultimately, I think that the debate actually centers around the thought that society, by and large, should consider a homosexual partnership as valid and normal. There is a majority of people in California who disagree (for whatever reason). This isn't about rights, as none of us has a right to get married. This isn't so much about money or benefits, as none of us has a right to those either. There are all sorts of provisions in government which state "if you are in this situation, you get this benefit". If you don't qualify, you don't get it. Instead, this entire debate (in my thinking anyway) is about one aspect of American culture saying "this lifestyle is as normal as yours and you will accept that."

There are many who would think "No it isn't, and no I won't." Who are you, or more specifically a judge, to force someone to accept their opinion as fact? Again...this isn't about race or gender...its about an individual's conscious decision on who to love.

~Jeordam
ex-Admin at wotmania (all things wot & art galleries)
Saving the Princess, Humanity, or the World-Entire since 1985
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Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional - 04/08/2010 10:40:50 PM 1363 Views
Thank God. *NM* - 04/08/2010 10:52:30 PM 381 Views
Amen. *NM* - 05/08/2010 02:09:24 AM 437 Views
Good news, but as the article says, it'll go all the way to the SC. - 04/08/2010 10:55:58 PM 713 Views
So then is that how we do it? - 04/08/2010 11:01:19 PM 839 Views
Of course. - 04/08/2010 11:04:59 PM 745 Views
His point was - 04/08/2010 11:40:14 PM 893 Views
Yeah but: What Ghavrel said below *NM* - 05/08/2010 08:01:02 AM 432 Views
And again... - 05/08/2010 06:08:56 PM 592 Views
well that is sort of the idea of how democracy works - 04/08/2010 11:06:57 PM 728 Views
I'm not the one who came up with the referendum system, you do realize. - 04/08/2010 11:11:13 PM 735 Views
The referendum system, in my opinion, has been a failure, especially in CA. - 04/08/2010 11:46:21 PM 819 Views
democracy has been a failure in CA. - 05/08/2010 02:42:21 PM 604 Views
No. It just shows the problems of a crazy electorate. - 05/08/2010 03:29:21 PM 721 Views
I think you made my point *NM* - 05/08/2010 03:35:00 PM 400 Views
About Californians being crazy, yes. *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:53:32 PM 374 Views
we vote fro way to much crap in general - 05/08/2010 02:41:19 PM 665 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 05/08/2010 04:11:34 PM 658 Views
my one recent dealing with our criminal justice - 05/08/2010 04:25:30 PM 696 Views
There are certain things that should not be decided by a vote... - 05/08/2010 02:02:45 AM 730 Views
I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular. - 05/08/2010 02:17:24 AM 786 Views
Re: I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular. - 05/08/2010 10:46:54 AM 778 Views
I understand it. - 05/08/2010 03:06:40 PM 761 Views
I know you don't support proposition 8 - 05/08/2010 03:29:34 PM 748 Views
- 05/08/2010 03:34:01 PM 786 Views
But that is just simplistic and silly to complain about when it is a long standing possibility - 05/08/2010 03:46:59 PM 668 Views
Oh, ees it? - 05/08/2010 04:07:39 PM 806 Views
Well they knew the rules before they started the whole thing - 05/08/2010 04:12:33 PM 645 Views
Why would you complain if you won? - 05/08/2010 04:15:20 PM 736 Views
You could recognise that you won by the system working in a way you don't like? - 05/08/2010 04:23:58 PM 617 Views
I'm sure that happens, in general. - 06/08/2010 02:43:18 PM 603 Views
It seems to happen a lot nowadays - 06/08/2010 03:06:33 PM 636 Views
instead it should be decided by judges who answer to no one? *NM* - 05/08/2010 07:12:59 AM 389 Views
The same judges who upheld our private right to bear arms. - 05/08/2010 02:09:07 PM 765 Views
not when judges stop using the Constitution - 05/08/2010 02:30:51 PM 740 Views
Sexual preference is not the right being protected. - 05/08/2010 03:22:04 PM 809 Views
I know that the 14th amendment is routinely used in ways it was never intended. - 05/08/2010 05:25:07 PM 719 Views
I realize that, but it is ultimately a good thing. - 05/08/2010 05:31:19 PM 791 Views
I am really on the fence a bit on the whole issue - 05/08/2010 06:00:59 PM 734 Views
I generally agree with you. - 05/08/2010 06:33:56 PM 751 Views
let's take away the citizenship of all black people if that's the way you think - 05/08/2010 09:06:23 PM 647 Views
Come now lets not be stupid - 06/08/2010 05:31:18 PM 614 Views
sorry but your statement was completely ignorant. - 06/08/2010 07:27:09 PM 733 Views
I will talk as soon as you stop spouting stupid rhetoric and say something relevant - 06/08/2010 07:54:09 PM 697 Views
bullshit. you will personally attack me no matter what i say. - 07/08/2010 02:04:04 PM 745 Views
Let's just be clear about which amendment is which. - 05/08/2010 11:50:57 PM 613 Views
but that still ignores intent and expands the law in ways not intnented when it created - 06/08/2010 04:53:43 AM 673 Views
Yes, no, no, and no. - 06/08/2010 05:29:09 AM 707 Views
there are serious flaws in your thinking here - 06/08/2010 06:18:13 PM 787 Views
Your assertions continue to lack support. - 06/08/2010 07:23:17 PM 814 Views
not all you just refuse to see things you disagree with - 06/08/2010 08:36:32 PM 782 Views
...said the pot to the kettle - 06/08/2010 09:17:28 PM 851 Views
yes but a shiny stainless steel pot - 09/08/2010 11:21:33 PM 897 Views
You continue to be wrong about history and the role of courts. - 10/08/2010 01:05:39 AM 1243 Views
If he's wrong, a lot of law scholars and Supreme Court Justices are wrong. - 10/08/2010 01:44:05 AM 700 Views
Brown vs. Board of Education, 'nuff said. *NM* - 10/08/2010 04:32:37 AM 384 Views
part oif the problem appears to be you completely missing the point - 10/08/2010 01:23:19 PM 912 Views
let my simplify my argument - 10/08/2010 01:42:47 PM 617 Views
Since when is marriage a right? *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:11:16 PM 374 Views
it may not be a "right"... - 05/08/2010 04:22:44 PM 648 Views
This is where the debate comes into play.... - 05/08/2010 05:04:08 PM 664 Views
How much would it change the debate if it was nurture, really? - 05/08/2010 09:48:22 PM 681 Views
except this is not merely a matter of changing society - 05/08/2010 11:18:48 PM 727 Views
1948. *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:50:30 PM 370 Views
It's a benefit that is being extended selectively to one set of the populace. - 05/08/2010 04:52:52 PM 732 Views
Hey, I'm single.... - 05/08/2010 05:05:41 PM 644 Views
That's a specious argument and you know it. - 05/08/2010 05:13:17 PM 717 Views
A homosexual has every opportunity as well..... - 05/08/2010 05:23:56 PM 663 Views
Oh quit the bullshit already. - 05/08/2010 05:29:15 PM 864 Views
Slow your role... - 05/08/2010 09:08:54 PM 770 Views
Your religious beliefs have 100% to do with your position. - 05/08/2010 09:43:23 PM 813 Views
Sorry, but what a nonsense. - 05/08/2010 09:27:17 PM 632 Views
hey that's it, jens! you solved the WHOLE PROBLEM!!! - 05/08/2010 11:24:29 PM 766 Views
ON TO WORLD HUNGER! - 06/08/2010 07:59:51 AM 659 Views
LET THEM HAVE CAEK. *NM* - 06/08/2010 02:29:56 PM 355 Views
Are you sure it's wise to feed people on a lie? *NM* - 06/08/2010 02:34:26 PM 446 Views
People are fed lies all the time - 06/08/2010 09:30:37 PM 641 Views
I agree with you - 05/08/2010 05:06:40 PM 698 Views
That's not valid. - 05/08/2010 05:26:50 PM 709 Views
I invite you to read the judge's conclusions, linked again inside. - 05/08/2010 11:43:44 PM 750 Views
Since 1948 - 06/08/2010 04:01:02 AM 854 Views
gah. can. only. see. typo. *NM* - 06/08/2010 03:43:21 PM 344 Views
I don't see any typo... *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:07:18 PM 402 Views
Open the link. *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:47:04 PM 491 Views
Oh, right. Yeah, that does kinda detract from things. *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:48:47 PM 380 Views
I agree - 05/08/2010 07:22:17 AM 722 Views
And Civil Rights lost the Democrats the South. - 05/08/2010 03:44:56 PM 734 Views
but it was done by congress passing laws and the president signing those laws - 05/08/2010 04:20:19 PM 683 Views
uhm, what? - 05/08/2010 04:24:43 PM 671 Views
those were mostly rulings up holding laws not stiking them down - 05/08/2010 05:05:15 PM 741 Views
I was under the impression that the supreme court had a role in it - 05/08/2010 04:31:51 PM 660 Views
but the court was not over turning the laws passed by congress - 05/08/2010 05:11:06 PM 706 Views
No, like in this case, isn't it? - 05/08/2010 05:24:19 PM 652 Views
I would say that is another case of judicial activism and shows the danger of the practice - 05/08/2010 05:43:02 PM 619 Views
Which one is? I imagine from different view points both are. - 06/08/2010 10:34:11 AM 620 Views
The law wasn't constitutional. - 07/08/2010 06:17:04 AM 657 Views
well it will take a higher court to decide that - 09/08/2010 10:46:15 PM 687 Views
Hard to believe it's the same governor who said "Gay marriage should be between a man and a woman." *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:05:45 PM 458 Views
Or "Iff it bleeds we can kill itt!" *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:14:45 PM 433 Views
Another step in the right direction. *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:08:15 PM 453 Views
Link to the full court order inside: - 04/08/2010 11:43:29 PM 844 Views
The judge quoting Scalia in favour of gay marriage is fairly amusing. - 04/08/2010 11:50:47 PM 722 Views
What page was that on? - 05/08/2010 11:25:49 AM 639 Views
Nah, it was way above page 109, in the findings of fact somewhere. - 05/08/2010 12:37:48 PM 743 Views
Oh, that is brilliant. - 05/08/2010 01:12:21 PM 647 Views
Pretty much. - 05/08/2010 01:44:22 PM 774 Views
I've always wondered what basis there is for banning necrophilia if "it's disgusting" is invalid. - 05/08/2010 01:51:19 PM 722 Views
because you cannot give consent when you are dead? - 05/08/2010 03:04:46 PM 710 Views
what if you give consent while you are still alive? - 05/08/2010 03:21:59 PM 811 Views
Is it then illegal? - 05/08/2010 03:23:46 PM 729 Views
I would think it would be illegal even then - 05/08/2010 03:34:31 PM 743 Views
Wikipedia to the rescue! - 05/08/2010 04:20:15 PM 869 Views
A dead body is just an object, not a person with rights. - 05/08/2010 03:27:08 PM 731 Views
Yes, but - 06/08/2010 08:42:05 AM 684 Views
Absolutely not. - 06/08/2010 03:21:14 PM 737 Views
not to mention necrophilia has a large potential to be hazardous to health. - 06/08/2010 09:42:43 PM 784 Views
That was a very well written judgement. - 05/08/2010 11:24:38 AM 737 Views
- 05/08/2010 12:10:02 AM 732 Views
Totally agree. - 05/08/2010 01:01:42 PM 776 Views
+1 *NM* - 05/08/2010 03:42:08 PM 398 Views
Irrelevant decision.....this was heading to SCOTUS from day 1 *NM* - 05/08/2010 12:53:26 AM 413 Views

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