Lies, deception, and fraud, from a legal POV, aren't the same
Isaac Send a noteboard - 22/07/2010 09:10:16 PM
Tricking someone into sleeping with you is wrong but it isn't rape. I would agree there could be cases were it was true and the twin brother case would fall into that. I can imagine other cases as well such as slipping into a drunk women's bed and letting her believe you are her husband or boyfriend. If on the other hand I said I was the base player for Stiff Little Finger and some girls sleeps with me that isn't rape. It may be wrong but it isn't rape and it should not be considered a crime.
I didn't saying tricking someone into having sex was definitely rape, I said fraud leading to it could be. Let's look at fraud
Common law fraud has nine elements:
1. a representation of an existing fact;
2. its materiality;
3. its falsity;
4. the speaker's knowledge of its falsity;
5. the speaker's intent that it shall be acted upon by the plaintiff;
6. plaintiff's ignorance of its falsity;
7. plaintiff's reliance on the truth of the representation;
8. plaintiff's right to rely upon it; and
9. consequent damages suffered by plaintiff.
You typically have to be able to prove all of that occurred, so the difference between a lie and actionable fraud tends to be those last three. Trying to establish fraud took place where sex is concerned is very hard, if one looks at that list, compared to other cases of fraud, that's all. Now if fraud can be established, then yes I think rape would be a legit conclusion. This a case - and mind you, I'm talking about Rape by Fraud, a real law in some states, not Rape by Deception, which is different - this boy would seem safe because of #2 and #8. A man's first name, in of itself, is not material, unless maybe the girl could establish she has a fetish for the name David and he was aware of that. That it implies he's Jewish, as the source of the deception, runs into #8, she has no reasonable right to assume the first name indicates he's Jewish. Now, her discriminatory taste for Jews and promiscuous behavior are no business of the law, and I think a lot of people are putting that above other things in the case, it doesn't matter. It's those 9 up above that matter, or would matter were this case taking place in Tennessee for instance, where Rape by Fraud is a law. Of course, barring rape, one can take normal civil legal action on such a case, and always has been able to, people just don't because it's hard to prove, 'weird', and most people don't know you could.
So, the case you raise, 'band member', is going to hit #8 also, people don't have a reasonable right to rely on such a claim without seeking verification, they are going to have problems establishing it was material as well, though from a legal POV it doesn't really matter if you're reasons are petty, but it does tend to prevent legal action, no one likes admitting to being stupid or petty in their romantic interludes.
Now, leaving out rape, one can pursue fraud based sex in a civil court pretty much anywhere, people just don't, and the ethics of the plaintiff aren't really important, it's just hard to establish it took place or to get a value for #9 - however, people do I gather use it as a defense in some cases, such as child support or statutory rape.
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- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
Palestinian jailed for rape after claiming to be Jewish
22/07/2010 03:24:15 PM
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that is scary
22/07/2010 04:30:30 PM
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Re: that is scary
22/07/2010 05:47:38 PM
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If a girl has a stuffed bra is that rape?
22/07/2010 06:12:01 PM
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Pretty messed up right there.
22/07/2010 04:45:37 PM
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Unles it was a line
22/07/2010 04:59:45 PM
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Deception is not coercion. *NM*
22/07/2010 05:40:20 PM
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Erm... did you post in the right place? *NM*
22/07/2010 05:55:54 PM
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If it was, it was surprisingly effective! Let's hope it wasn't something serious.
22/07/2010 06:18:44 PM
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Hi, I'm Daniel.
22/07/2010 06:43:52 PM
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Just to play devil's advocate here, rape by deception or rape by fraud are possible
22/07/2010 06:53:38 PM
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So...
22/07/2010 07:19:57 PM
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I am not sure I agree with that
22/07/2010 07:31:30 PM
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Lies, deception, and fraud, from a legal POV, aren't the same
22/07/2010 09:10:16 PM
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when you assume you make a victim out of you and a rapist out of me
22/07/2010 08:28:44 PM
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oh good lord this is ridiculous.
22/07/2010 10:28:31 PM
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So my friend who introduces himself as a Californian firefighting smoke jumper is a rapist? *NM*
22/07/2010 11:16:23 PM
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"Passing" and miscegenation used to be illegal in many states. Looks like Israel is still...
23/07/2010 03:22:52 AM
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Re: "Passing" and miscegenation used to be illegal in many states. Looks like Israel is still...
23/07/2010 04:38:27 AM
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Perhaps you were talking about Israel. I was talking about racism/ethnocentrism and how it...
23/07/2010 05:34:23 AM
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A bit more detail on this
23/07/2010 04:26:52 PM
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