My social capital at this site is pretty low, so I don't mind admitting that I agree with MK.
Aemon Send a noteboard - 28/06/2010 04:12:42 PM
Legally you may have the same right to the road as cars, but anyone with common sense can tell otherwise. Pedaling down a road meant for vehicles that can travel up to 100 miles and hour is just silly and stupid. It'd be like flying a hang glider in front of an airplane and demanding the pilot to slow down. You know why cyclists are kicked off sidewalks? Because people are walking about as fast to cyclists as cyclists are to cars. It just so happens we have to let the cyclists pedal along somewhere. Cyclists shouldn't be allowed to pedal their bikes anywhere but lanes designated for cyclists, to say you have as much right to the road as cars is like saying a hang glider has as much right to a "sky" road as an airplane.
Essentially what you're saying is "Because I am encased a ton of metal that could kill you as easily as swatting a fly, and you are unprotected and vulnerable, I don't have to obey the laws that are put in place to protect you from me". If you think that's morally acceptable, then you are seriously lacking in human decency.
Let me just start by saying, holy crap, man. He wasn't saying that at all. You're putting words in his mouth that he never said, and they're not very nice ones either. Why would you assume that, because he doesn't like bikers on the road, he thinks it's ok to flaunt the law and willfully endanger cyclists? If you really think that's how he feels, you need to seriously examine the concept of human decency yourself.
Now, antagonistic paragraph out of the way, let me tell you why I agree with him. In short: roads are made for cars. You know that, I know that. We can argue the point if you're in the mood for it, but hopefully we can just agree that roads are pretty obviously designed for cars. However, it's quite true that the law also permits cyclists to utilize the roads. Too, good citizens have to obey such laws, and the vast, VAST majority of us do.
Keeping that in mind, let's look at some of your arguments/statements/whatever.
- You say that MK is "simply wrong" because the law doesn't reflect his opinion. That's a load o' processed lunchmeat. Laws are made for all sorts of reasons by all manner of people, and are as fallible as everything else in the world. We obey them because they create order, but that does not mean they are universally right, proper, and correct.
- MK says bikers shouldn't ride where bike-specific infrastructure doesn't exist. You say they often have nowhere better to ride, and act as if that's clear evidence of why they belong on the road. However, it's not. Cyclists don't have to ride at all. Obviously, this is not an attractive option, but it's not the motorist's fault. The lack of proper infrastructure is not reason enough for bicyclist's to needlessly endanger themselves, and other motorists (I'll get to that in a sec).
- You say motorists endanger bikers. This is true, and unfortunate. However, bikers also endanger even the most safety conscious of motorists. While you're riding along on the side of the road, trying to give cars their space, cars are inching around you, moving into the other lane so as not to hit you. Cars in the other lane are moving off onto the shoulder / side of the road trying to avoid the displaced traffic. All of that isdangerous. Maybe traffic shouldn't pass bikers at all, and should just accept that everyone in a car should get to their destination as slow as the biker ahead? Perhaps. But long traffic jams are also dangerous, increasing the risk of rear end collisions, rash actions by unconscionable drivers, etc.
- You say that bikes are a "mode of transportation," and that if everyone rode them, the world would be a better place. You also say this news hasn't reached America yet. And you're right. The vast majority of America is designed for cars. This is bad. The solution, however, is to make America more bike-friendly, not to force bikes into the system where they don't belong. Bikers who insist on riding on roads not designed for them inconvenience everyone (except themselves) and put everyone (including themselves) at higher risk of accident and/or injury.
Anyway. I'll try to wrap up here by saying that I know where you're coming from, and I understand why you're frustrated with inconsiderate drivers. Personally, I'm extremely cautious of cyclists on the road, and it's for that very reason that I wish they'd keep themselves off of it. Does the law say they can be there? Yes it does, which is why I don't yell at them or give them any grief. However, does the law make sense when it inconveniences and endangers dozens of people for the sake of one? Not to me it doesn't. Therefore I agree with MK, and I think your extremely negative response to him (particularly when he worded things fairly nicely, and specifically apologized for any offense) was a bit unjust.
I got screamed at by a motorist while riding my bicycle today
28/06/2010 05:44:45 AM
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Ummm
28/06/2010 06:01:19 AM
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Let me guess. You live in an American suburb. *NM*
28/06/2010 06:12:24 AM
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Yeah, the "sport" part gives that away even more than everything else... *NM*
28/06/2010 08:06:03 AM
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seriously, you think people didn't use bikes as transportation anymore!! *NM*
28/06/2010 08:26:36 AM
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That was offensive to cyclists. People who think like you are why so many of us die. *NM*
28/06/2010 08:28:24 AM
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Now that I've calmed down a bit, I'm going to actually address your points.
28/06/2010 12:16:10 PM
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hey now!
28/06/2010 01:18:16 PM
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I understand that what he said offended you
28/06/2010 04:11:57 PM
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You're right, I was stereotyping and getting a little ad hominem. I'm sorry. *NM*
29/06/2010 08:33:20 AM
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My social capital at this site is pretty low, so I don't mind admitting that I agree with MK.
28/06/2010 04:12:42 PM
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Re: My social capital at this site is pretty low, so I don't mind admitting that I agree with MK.
28/06/2010 06:27:42 PM
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This point:
28/06/2010 06:37:32 PM
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Not in the United States.
28/06/2010 07:25:56 PM
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Highways are, of course, a different matter.
28/06/2010 07:32:50 PM
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I know
28/06/2010 07:34:04 PM
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Re: I know
28/06/2010 08:27:04 PM
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Re: I know
28/06/2010 08:38:14 PM
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It is illegal to drive on the shoulder.
29/06/2010 09:43:40 AM
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i'm pretty sure bicycles are banned from almost all highways, regardless of access
29/06/2010 02:34:00 PM
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Maybe I should have said "modern roads."
28/06/2010 08:20:55 PM
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Perhaps.
28/06/2010 08:36:15 PM
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I think we just disagree on the necessity is all.
28/06/2010 09:00:44 PM
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Yes, because that cyclist is SUCH a hazard to you in your car.
29/06/2010 01:03:05 AM
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The central issue is people.
29/06/2010 09:52:22 AM
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you keep talking about cyclists on highways as if it applied to all roads.
29/06/2010 02:37:31 PM
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There are TWO equally important points there:
30/06/2010 01:15:17 AM
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then why are you arguing with me? I said that the central issue is people being stupid. *NM*
01/07/2010 05:59:23 AM
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Two words: Public Transportation
30/06/2010 03:32:05 AM
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...doesn't exist or is completely dysfunctional in a lot of places. *NM*
30/06/2010 03:57:26 AM
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Re: Two words: Public Transportation
30/06/2010 08:43:51 AM
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Re: Two words: Public Transportation
01/07/2010 08:05:37 AM
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You can't be serious. If you do think that's always (not just sometimes) a viable option, then...
30/06/2010 09:20:03 AM
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My city doesn't have ANY. not even shuttle buses. *NM*
01/07/2010 06:00:22 AM
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Re: My city doesn't have ANY. not even shuttle buses.
01/07/2010 08:08:02 AM
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Outside of a highly urbanized area, I surmise. The entirety of the US is not like the East Coast. *NM*
02/07/2010 02:11:01 AM
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Despite your subject line, I'm glad to see that we agree with each other more than MK and I do.
29/06/2010 10:13:29 AM
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Get your head on straight, you silly cyclist
01/07/2010 08:02:58 AM
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He never said there were no buses in our city. He said that, as a student, he can't afford them. *NM*
01/07/2010 08:42:47 AM
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I'd say most urban areas have few roads with speed limits above 50 km/h (30mph)
01/07/2010 10:35:20 AM
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Now now, there's no need to be rude.
02/07/2010 12:04:16 AM
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Re: Now now, there's no need to be rude.
04/07/2010 05:53:01 PM
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That's always upsetting. You just have to remember that some people are simply arseholes, and...
28/06/2010 11:41:22 AM
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Re: I got screamed at by a motorist while riding my bicycle today
28/06/2010 03:25:22 PM
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Are they supposed to use sidewalks anywhere? *NM*
28/06/2010 04:58:50 PM
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In Sweden we often have combined bike and walking paths a few meters to the side of the road
28/06/2010 06:22:40 PM
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Not sure, but
28/06/2010 06:53:14 PM
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Thankfully I live in a very bike-friendly city, though this sort of thing has still happened to me. *NM*
28/06/2010 07:56:59 PM
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I'm so glad I actually READ what you said before responding.
29/06/2010 09:16:25 AM
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?? I thought it was matter of COURSE that bikes weren't allowed on the highway
29/06/2010 09:27:06 AM
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Should be, but it's not.
29/06/2010 09:59:35 AM
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Question for you.
29/06/2010 10:22:13 AM
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the law says they have to to ride in single file as close to curb as is practical
29/06/2010 03:31:55 PM
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