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That seems a rather limited view of history. Joel Send a noteboard - 07/06/2010 01:10:11 AM
Regardless of whether Purim was a silly myth or not, there was no "Israeli-Arab" conflict of the sort that you propose.

No, the interesting thing is that the majority of anti-Jewish sentiment, prior to the latter half of the Twentieth Century, came from WHITE CHRISTIANS IN EUROPE. Jews were protected in al-Andalus, they were protected in Jerusalem under the Muslims, they were protected by the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire and they were protected by the Shahs of Persia.

Jews lived in peace in Baghdad, and Basra, and Tehran, and Shiraz, and Damascus, and the cities of Morocco, and Jerusalem, and Granada.

Yes, they had to pay taxes as dhimmis. However, they weren't murdered on a regular basis the way they were in Europe. They weren't deported en masse like they were from Spain and England. They weren't burned and attacked like they were in Germany, and France, and Italy. They weren't systematically deprived of any means of working the land, attending institutions of higher education or advancing themselves like they were all over Europe. They weren't slaughtered in pogroms, they weren't killed in death camps and they weren't forced to live in ghettos or shtetls.

Up until the time that militant Zionist settlers arrived in British Mandate Palestine in the 20th Century, there was really virtually no Jew-Arab hostility, and there hadn't been since the establishment of Islam. Some issues can be raised about the last days of Muslim Spain and the Nineteenth Century in the Ottoman Empire, but the problem there is more one of a degeneration of public order generally.

As a result, the problem is, really, a new one.

Whether by "history" we mean real events to which Biblical and Koranic stories refer, or the existence of those stories. The Bible claims that same Persian Empire in which the events of Purim were supposed to have occurred ultimately allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem--where the people living there harassed them and sent letters to the Persian King claiming Israel had a predisposition to sedition and rebellion. Again, maybe it's just a story, but it's a story that claims those who built the Second Temple had to work with a tool in one hand and a weapon in the other because of constant attacks by their neighbors. They may or may not have been "Arab" but they were almost certainly "Palestinian" in the modern sense.

Yes, there was rampant anti-semitism in Medieval and even Enlightenment Europe; the Holocaust didn't happen in a vacuum. There was also the destruction of the Second Temple and Jerusalem in the wake of the Jewish Revolt against Rome, and the diaspora largely responsible for the large Jewish presence in Medieval Europe in the first place. There was also the FIRST destruction of Jerusalem, Solomons Temple and Israel (can we at least agree THOSE were historical events that had nada to do with Europe? ;)) By the historical standards of the region, yes, the various Muslim monarchs were benevolent in their treatment of Jews as second class citizens (and didn't restrict that treatment to Jews either. ) That doesn't mean everything was fine, and European anti-semitism doesn't explain instances of anti-Jewish language in the Koran, or the Tanakhs many claims of persecution by various Mid-Eastern Gentiles. If much of it had died down by the 20th Century, that probably had more to do with the diaspora than any warming of relations; I've also heard it argued that the Jewish presence in Canaan prior to the Balfour Declaration was negligible, which might explain why there weren't a lot of Mid-Easterners hunting Jews who weren't there in the first place.

Whether or not one accepts Abraham, the Exodus, Purim or any of the rest as historical events they were a well established part of Jewish religion and culture before Europe even existed. To again reference the quote used in the lecture, the Tanakh doesn't say not to oppress the stranger "because you were a stranger in Buchenwald" or "because of the Inquisition. " That obviously doesn't excuse centuries of anti-semitism in Europe, but to imply the problems between Palestine and Israel are solely or even primarily of European and American origin is to ignore a great many texts you know far too well.
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This message last edited by Joel on 07/06/2010 at 01:10:54 AM
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Jacqueline Rose on the Dreyfus affair and related problems, in the LRB - 06/06/2010 11:28:14 AM 1082 Views
What she has to say about Dreyfus is very interesting. - 06/06/2010 04:48:16 PM 870 Views
Re: What she has to say about Dreyfus is very interesting. - 06/06/2010 04:56:32 PM 796 Views
*remains amused at the suggestion of the Dreyfus Affairs "pertinence" to "current" events* - 06/06/2010 05:14:23 PM 801 Views
I agree in part and (strongly) disagree in part. - 06/06/2010 05:40:26 PM 773 Views
"If it's an eternal struggle, how could there ever be a solution or a peace?" - 06/06/2010 06:20:39 PM 837 Views
Purim may or may not refer to a historic event. Even if it does, Haman was not likely an Arab. - 07/06/2010 12:00:05 AM 686 Views
I second your main point. - 07/06/2010 12:09:42 AM 699 Views
I don't discount that there is Arab blood in many or even most "Arabs". - 07/06/2010 12:18:32 AM 690 Views
Okay, fair enough then. *NM* - 07/06/2010 08:45:19 AM 303 Views
The holiday is centuries old and real, regardless. - 07/06/2010 12:28:59 AM 777 Views
You're still missing the major point here. - 07/06/2010 12:44:08 AM 679 Views
That seems a rather limited view of history. - 07/06/2010 01:10:11 AM 787 Views
What the Hell are you going on about? - 07/06/2010 04:08:19 AM 742 Views
Oooh - 07/06/2010 11:07:43 AM 606 Views
Yeah, to whom was the claim on that land given? - 07/06/2010 10:35:42 PM 741 Views
jeez Joel... - 07/06/2010 04:24:47 AM 724 Views
No, the Persians are not Arabs. - 07/06/2010 10:09:47 PM 854 Views
I (coincidentally) stumbled across those infamous hadith passages about Jews the other day. - 07/06/2010 09:41:39 AM 773 Views
So? - 07/06/2010 10:50:49 PM 758 Views
So the relevance of apocalyptic passages is close to zero. - 07/06/2010 11:55:05 PM 716 Views
Not to mention - 08/06/2010 09:09:27 AM 653 Views
Then why are they canon? - 08/06/2010 06:25:09 PM 905 Views
are you claiming that people would pull some things out of holy text and ignore the rest? - 08/06/2010 12:16:41 PM 785 Views
*NM* - 08/06/2010 01:16:13 PM 297 Views
well, for me this just proves why we are not supposed to live among non-Jews - 06/06/2010 11:39:45 PM 873 Views
how so? - 06/06/2010 11:41:18 PM 644 Views
It reminds me of what I kept thinking as I read it. - 07/06/2010 12:51:36 AM 671 Views
couldn't get past the part where anyone who opposes Obama is a racist *NM* - 08/06/2010 01:40:07 AM 473 Views
You hallucinated? *NM* - 08/06/2010 08:39:37 AM 350 Views
No, that would've been one of the places where she should've shut up. *NM* - 08/06/2010 08:58:11 AM 287 Views
No - 08/06/2010 09:08:04 AM 651 Views
I think he's not talking about that bit, but about the very first paragraph. - 08/06/2010 09:30:21 AM 778 Views
If there was more I didn't get far enough to hear it - 08/06/2010 12:09:47 PM 635 Views
That's the problem with the speech - the large majority of what she had to say was worthwhile. - 08/06/2010 01:15:39 PM 703 Views
The problem is blatant bias - 08/06/2010 02:24:57 PM 678 Views

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