Because soldiers going into a dangerous situation don't carry paintball guns
SilverWarder Send a noteboard - 31/05/2010 04:21:50 PM
I don't buy it either.
Riot guns that fire rubber bullets or sandbags, something like that maybe. Carrying a paintball gun is idiotic.
The Israelis are many things but idiotic isn't generally one of them.
Riot guns that fire rubber bullets or sandbags, something like that maybe. Carrying a paintball gun is idiotic.
The Israelis are many things but idiotic isn't generally one of them.
May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk.
Old Egyptian Blessing
Old Egyptian Blessing
Israeli attack on aid convoy
31/05/2010 10:21:02 AM
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Israel was in a no win situation
31/05/2010 12:09:13 PM
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you do realize israel had plenty of options to deter the boats other than opening fire on them?
31/05/2010 06:20:03 PM
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do you realize they didn't open fire on the ship?
31/05/2010 07:51:53 PM
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supposedly the boat being boarded shouted "we are raising the white flag, stop shooting"
31/05/2010 07:54:49 PM
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Why is it that the Israelis are routinely not believed and the Palestinian extremists are?
31/05/2010 08:17:09 PM
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probably because israel has a history of opening fire on people they don't agree with?
31/05/2010 08:26:19 PM
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And the Palestinians don't? And obnoxious Turks don't? *NM*
31/05/2010 09:02:20 PM
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this was not a palestinian boat
31/05/2010 09:09:47 PM
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I'm aware of that. But there were some Palestinians on board from what I read.
31/05/2010 10:03:59 PM
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And a holocaust survivor and a Scottish journalist. Quite the mixed bag, really. *NM*
31/05/2010 10:04:52 PM
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From what I heard, 11 dead.
31/05/2010 12:26:59 PM
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It's a PR disaster, surely.
31/05/2010 12:31:50 PM
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To be fair: they said they'd never let the flotilla through so what did people expect? *NM*
31/05/2010 02:01:10 PM
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A) No killings, and B) No open sea piracy.
31/05/2010 02:23:28 PM
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Enforcing a blockade isn't piracy, and violence was a predictable result. *NM*
31/05/2010 02:35:35 PM
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That defense gets sketchy if it was in international waters. *NM*
31/05/2010 02:37:00 PM
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Why? Because of international "law"? I doubt the US will agree to do anything to Israel. *NM*
31/05/2010 02:55:29 PM
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And in turn I doubt China will agree to do anything about Iran.
31/05/2010 05:18:59 PM
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Interestingly enough, one of our problems with China seemd to vanish from the news...
01/06/2010 02:02:35 AM
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*shrug* Your opinions are not worth water in this question.
31/05/2010 03:05:31 PM
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ships are boarded in international waters all of the time *NM*
31/05/2010 07:53:53 PM
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Yes, but then the pirates are hunted down and shot by the russians. *NM*
31/05/2010 09:15:52 PM
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in this case it was Israel that hunt them down and shot them *NM*
01/06/2010 04:34:19 AM
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No, those would be the pirates. *NM*
01/06/2010 10:03:37 AM
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no those would be tghe radicals that got them selfs killed trying to run a blockade. *NM*
02/06/2010 01:42:23 AM
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What ship did they board? *NM*
02/06/2010 01:42:17 PM
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It is impressive that you are still trying
02/06/2010 02:59:02 PM
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no it is just a stupid and inaccurate analogy
02/06/2010 03:05:32 PM
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Well, that are two concepts that you are intimately familiar with...
02/06/2010 07:30:07 PM
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and talking with you only makes me more familar with the issues
02/06/2010 07:41:20 PM
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Calling me a Jew-hater now?
02/06/2010 08:23:08 PM
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you compare Israel to North Korea and want to talk about stupid
02/06/2010 08:34:03 PM
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Propaganda is propaganda. You're the one who chooses to believe in it. *NM*
02/06/2010 10:13:42 PM
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Um, I know what I expected: that they wouldn't kill anyone. *NM*
31/05/2010 04:02:38 PM
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Ideally, that wouldn't have happened. But when are real life situations ever ideal?
31/05/2010 04:29:50 PM
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That's a bit of a meager excuse.
31/05/2010 04:42:35 PM
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Why did Israel have to waste time and effort "exhausting peaceful options" in the first place?
31/05/2010 05:41:59 PM
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I don't think it was so inexorable that the result would be that.
31/05/2010 05:57:29 PM
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To be fair: this is israel's typical response to international pro-palestinian protest groups
31/05/2010 06:37:25 PM
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This won't change anything
31/05/2010 06:04:54 PM
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America and Turkey are military allies, so they do care.
31/05/2010 06:14:21 PM
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yes and that alliance came in so handy back in 2003
31/05/2010 07:50:12 PM
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That nearly all went extremely wrong.
31/05/2010 08:20:41 PM
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Yes...why are we allied with a country like that?
31/05/2010 08:22:12 PM
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Question
31/05/2010 10:00:43 PM
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The Turkish people is certainly quite anti-American
31/05/2010 11:26:37 PM
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The Israelis warned them. If they resisted violently they knew they would/could get shot dead.
31/05/2010 02:34:38 PM
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An Israeli friend on fb
31/05/2010 04:15:32 PM
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That sounds like utter nonsense. *NM*
31/05/2010 04:18:06 PM
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Because? *NM*
31/05/2010 04:18:45 PM
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The Israeli army would know better than to send soldiers with paintball guns
31/05/2010 04:20:52 PM
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Because soldiers going into a dangerous situation don't carry paintball guns
31/05/2010 04:21:50 PM
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I highly doubt they held paintball guns.
31/05/2010 05:01:15 PM
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Not least if one goes on the latest accounts coming out
31/05/2010 05:07:46 PM
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I see, this may have caused the confusion...
01/06/2010 04:19:22 PM
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Actually, some Israeli military sources are saying that some commandos had paintball guns
01/06/2010 04:53:12 PM
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Paintball weapons? Weird. They don't hurt nad enough to incapacitate.
02/06/2010 01:32:33 AM
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It sucks, but I don't think the Israelis really had any choice.
31/05/2010 04:20:07 PM
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two points of criticism
31/05/2010 06:50:31 PM
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Those could be valid.
02/06/2010 05:45:35 PM
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On the blockade...
02/06/2010 06:06:24 PM
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three years is the number I keep seeing
02/06/2010 06:22:05 PM
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So what do you think would've happened if Israel hadn't tried to stop the convoy?
02/06/2010 06:47:52 PM
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Two pistols?
02/06/2010 07:06:35 PM
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pipes were last minute? there is video of them using them before the ships were even boarded
02/06/2010 07:43:06 PM
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There is footage of them preparing them before the Israeli forces arrived?
02/06/2010 07:46:26 PM
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look at the link I posted at the bottom
02/06/2010 08:03:18 PM
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Perhaps you linked the wrong one?
03/06/2010 01:13:33 PM
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you argument requires we believe they were surprised the IDF showed up
03/06/2010 01:59:07 PM
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the naval blockade has been firmly in place for the last 3-ish years, but....
03/06/2010 02:48:11 AM
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I'm a bit confused by what you're saying about Egypt.
03/06/2010 09:53:27 AM
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confused by which part?
03/06/2010 04:15:22 PM
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Nor does Egypt allow aid into Gaza, except for the occasional medical supply.
03/06/2010 04:21:27 PM
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egypt does open the border against israel's wishes though
03/06/2010 04:30:46 PM
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Only when it suits them to a) claim Arab brotherhood, and b) make political hay.
03/06/2010 05:58:54 PM
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Other sources don't agree
03/06/2010 04:29:03 PM
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ah yes. see, there are actually two different barriers being discussed here
04/06/2010 01:14:21 AM
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So Israel has committed international piracy so it can keep up the collective punishment of children
31/05/2010 04:52:40 PM
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Darn! You posted "stay classy" first.
31/05/2010 05:04:08 PM
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The UN treaty does not class this as piracy
02/06/2010 06:10:35 PM
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Interesting - I guess I need to rephrase to them acting like pirates
02/06/2010 06:58:18 PM
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I don't really have a bone in this fight
31/05/2010 04:54:59 PM
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And exactly how would you suggest doing this 'disabling'?
31/05/2010 05:02:21 PM
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Pretty easy actually
31/05/2010 05:14:34 PM
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If Israel was out for blood, how come there were no injuired on all the previous convoys ?
31/05/2010 05:34:06 PM
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Because Israel didn't go insane trying to stop the previous convoys? And even let some of them pass. *NM*
31/05/2010 05:37:22 PM
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Who said the Israelis were "out for blood"? Most people just think it was a dumb move. *NM*
31/05/2010 07:58:14 PM
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What an amazing gift this will be for Sunni extremists and Shiite activists. *NM*
31/05/2010 05:40:04 PM
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You think they needed this sort of thing to get whipped into a frenzy?
31/05/2010 05:48:39 PM
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For themselves? No. But it will translate into a massive PR boon for them and their message.
31/05/2010 06:07:00 PM
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Lesson: Don't try and run a blockade manned by people who are better armed than you.
31/05/2010 05:40:16 PM
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America isn't blockading Cuba
31/05/2010 05:55:23 PM
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Fine, change Venezuelan to American and it's the same thing.
31/05/2010 05:59:50 PM
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Dude. There is no blockade. There are no American ships surrounding Cuba. *NM*
31/05/2010 06:04:22 PM
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Oh. Geeze I always thought the Americans had ships preventing vessils from reaching Cuba.
31/05/2010 06:18:42 PM
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I'm not sure if the US physically enforces it
31/05/2010 06:11:57 PM
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Well I'm not American.
31/05/2010 06:21:15 PM
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Europe and Canada trade plenty with Cuba - and go on holidays there.
31/05/2010 06:29:33 PM
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The point of that
31/05/2010 06:42:46 PM
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They do not enforce it. The executive branch knows they will lose if they get challenged in court.
31/05/2010 08:37:53 PM
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The biggest problem for Israel is that this incident didn't occur on the blockade line.
31/05/2010 06:25:38 PM
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I find it odd that innocent unarmed civilians can seriously injure armed commandos
31/05/2010 06:47:55 PM
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i never saw where they were called unarmed?
31/05/2010 08:33:03 PM
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we are pretty sure who fired first now
02/06/2010 03:06:39 PM
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oh, they released the footage shot on board the boat?
02/06/2010 04:13:25 PM
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so you won't accept footage from the IDF? That will make believing whatever you want easier
02/06/2010 05:34:59 PM
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yes, i should only believe the one side who has a case to prove instead of listening to both
03/06/2010 02:51:05 AM
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that is a joke. Guilty until proven innocent seems to be your policy with Israel
03/06/2010 02:06:57 PM
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israel has a history of botching these things. forgive me if i follow the history...
04/06/2010 01:17:06 AM
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and the radicals are known for their honesty, atleasy in what you like to think is reality
04/06/2010 02:12:18 PM
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Turkey has threatened to send military vessels with future aid convoys.
31/05/2010 07:50:54 PM
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If they do that, we should kick them out of NATO.
31/05/2010 07:56:47 PM
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If by "help the Greek economy" you mean "make them bankrupt", it could work. *NM*
31/05/2010 08:04:14 PM
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What are you talking about? We'd subsidize their army and pump billions into their economy.
31/05/2010 08:06:44 PM
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I am talking about the fact that part of the reason for their current financial trouble...
31/05/2010 08:49:43 PM
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If I learned anything from Diplomacy, it was that
31/05/2010 09:03:36 PM
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UPDATE: Proof that IDF soldiers were attacked as they boarded the Turkish ship
31/05/2010 09:23:02 PM
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"Violent, extremist attack"? Are you for real?
31/05/2010 09:29:43 PM
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What else would you call it?
31/05/2010 09:43:01 PM
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Attempting to repel boarders? Or is that to unbiased a term for you?
31/05/2010 09:56:31 PM
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Except these "armed pirates" were soldiers.
31/05/2010 10:00:14 PM
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Acting illegally.
31/05/2010 10:01:31 PM
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I guess Americans off the Somali coast boarding vessils the suspect to be pirate ships...
31/05/2010 11:16:38 PM
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I'm quite sure they have legal permission to board from the owners of those ships *NM*
31/05/2010 11:29:08 PM
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I seriously doubt it.
31/05/2010 11:37:53 PM
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That's why I said "owners" and not "the guys running it" *NM*
01/06/2010 06:39:56 AM
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And yet most of the pirates own their own boats.
01/06/2010 03:50:47 PM
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I was talking about the hijacked ships
01/06/2010 04:01:02 PM
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Aparently it's routine now for militaries to pick up little boats of pirates.
01/06/2010 09:26:35 PM
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You think boarding ships legally passing through international waters is the same thing?
01/06/2010 03:55:03 PM
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legal seems to be a very fuzzy concept these days
01/06/2010 04:46:47 AM
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When it comes to international law, it can be applied when you aren't powerful enough
01/06/2010 07:56:50 AM
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As in Israel does what it likes and the US does the best it can to allow it.
01/06/2010 12:29:20 PM
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the ships publicly announced they were going to run the blockade
02/06/2010 01:37:00 AM
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Israel should have waited till they were in Israeli waters
02/06/2010 11:57:40 AM
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the timing? Israel is not the one who set the timing for the publicity stunt
02/06/2010 03:02:36 PM
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i highly doubt european MPs were expecting to be shot at by the IDF
03/06/2010 03:05:27 AM
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sorry but you are still wrong because atleast one of the ships did have a fight witht them
03/06/2010 02:12:10 PM
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Israel has no control of the actions of the IDF then?
03/06/2010 01:07:28 PM
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"The timing shows, I think, what the Israeli priority is - on a US holiday, again."
03/06/2010 02:22:58 PM
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are you for real?
01/06/2010 04:45:21 AM
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There was a misunderstanding, and I apologized to Dragonsoul. See above. *NM*
01/06/2010 11:13:08 AM
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Looks like they got what they asked for...
31/05/2010 10:00:53 PM
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Oh?
31/05/2010 10:24:09 PM
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Re: Oh?
01/06/2010 02:44:15 AM
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Ah, I follow that now.
01/06/2010 12:28:22 PM
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Re: Ah, I follow that now.
01/06/2010 04:02:48 PM
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Re: Ah, I follow that now.
01/06/2010 04:43:32 PM
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Again I ask you: Does that make American soldiers who board ships off the Somali coast....
01/06/2010 09:13:35 PM
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israel offered to take the aid packages because they wanted to keep the non-approved aid
01/06/2010 01:47:42 AM
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I guess it does make things simplier if you just always blame Israel
02/06/2010 01:44:56 AM
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i guess it makes things simpler if you don't allow for nuanced positions and take one side
02/06/2010 01:56:53 AM
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I am blind? I am not the one ignoring the facts
02/06/2010 05:29:43 PM
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You are however the one who refuses to allow nuances.
02/06/2010 06:40:01 PM
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which nuances am I ignoring?
02/06/2010 07:37:54 PM
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Israel had hours more to go in
02/06/2010 07:51:14 PM
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Hmm
02/06/2010 08:09:48 PM
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so they were scheduled to arive on an American holiday?
02/06/2010 08:52:08 PM
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The first one where it has ended in Israeli troops kiling people?
03/06/2010 01:02:12 PM
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what would have been the point of waiting?
02/06/2010 08:54:57 PM
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if they had waited, they could have claimed the moral high ground that they did everything possible
03/06/2010 02:24:49 AM
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yes because their critics are so open minded
03/06/2010 03:38:46 PM
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you are just as close minded as you claim israel's critics to be.
03/06/2010 04:29:59 PM
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refusing to to believe silliness is not being close minded
03/06/2010 05:50:26 PM
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Re: which nuances am I ignoring?
02/06/2010 08:27:20 PM
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Re: which nuances am I ignoring?
02/06/2010 09:23:22 PM
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Re: which nuances am I ignoring?
03/06/2010 10:25:01 AM
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Re: which nuances am I ignoring?
03/06/2010 03:07:56 PM
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Re: which nuances am I ignoring?
03/06/2010 07:02:34 PM
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Yes, there were much more people aboard than needed to get the ships where they were going
02/06/2010 07:05:26 PM
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so who placed those in people in harms way to make a politcal statement?
02/06/2010 07:58:19 PM
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Everyone I'm aware of who was on the ships chose to do so themselves
02/06/2010 10:13:53 PM
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if their stance is non violence then they need to condemn anyone who started the violence
03/06/2010 03:10:46 PM
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your facts have nothing to do with the discussion in this thread.
03/06/2010 02:42:06 AM
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so everything is Israel's fault. Remoind me again how they came to be in Gaza
03/06/2010 01:55:14 PM
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you're being extremist again. it's not very becoming... *NM*
03/06/2010 04:22:18 PM
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not believing that Israel can just leave Gaza alone makes me an extremist?
03/06/2010 06:02:15 PM
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translating everyting i say into "israel is 100% at fault every time" is being extremist. *NM*
04/06/2010 01:24:33 AM
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saying "israel is 100% at fault every time" is being extremist *NM*
04/06/2010 02:13:22 PM
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If the Turks had any balls
31/05/2010 09:35:32 PM
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Because you know....
31/05/2010 09:44:10 PM
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If the Turks had any integrity, they'd own up to their ongoing genocide of the Kurds
31/05/2010 09:46:53 PM
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Now you're moving from Turcophobia to blatant fiction. *NM*
31/05/2010 09:56:00 PM
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Fine. How about they own up to their genocide of the Armenians then?
31/05/2010 09:57:48 PM
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Fair enough stance, but that doesn't justify Tom making things up. "Ongoing genocide" is nonsense. *NM*
31/05/2010 10:16:53 PM
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the Turks are assholes in regards to their complete denial of the past (Armenia, kurds)
31/05/2010 09:56:29 PM
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wait a second...... "ongoing genocide of the Kurds"
31/05/2010 09:59:18 PM
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Yes, for both you and Legolas, allow me to share the following:
31/05/2010 10:16:18 PM
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That's not "ongoing".
31/05/2010 10:29:36 PM
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The fact that it happened within the past five years is recent enough for me.
01/06/2010 12:14:24 AM
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The absence of anything resembling genocide or massacres dates back a lot longer than that.
01/06/2010 12:28:32 AM
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Here's something recent fromSmithsonian.
01/06/2010 01:09:58 AM
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Uh-oh. Ocalan just announced he's abandoning efforts to seek dialogue with Turkey.
01/06/2010 04:48:24 AM
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The Turkish response has been making me wonder about something.
01/06/2010 05:38:42 AM
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It does make sense. Obama has put alot of effort into renewing the peace process
01/06/2010 07:14:40 AM
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Russian websites have speculated it was intentional Turkish provocation.
01/06/2010 02:04:39 PM
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Here is some video of the innocent victims attacking the IDF
02/06/2010 06:03:33 PM
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you're still posting video released by the IDF to prove the IDF's case.
03/06/2010 03:01:16 AM
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dude lookat that camera angle and tell me who was shooting it
03/06/2010 02:08:02 PM
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look at who posted that video and tell me a longer version exists
03/06/2010 04:21:26 PM
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so the IDF is guilty until proven innocent?
03/06/2010 04:24:45 PM
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as i said to you before. if you are found running from a crime did you commit that crime?
03/06/2010 04:34:14 PM
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have you not seen the footage of the men being attacked as they came off of the helicopter?
03/06/2010 05:51:47 PM
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Did you even watch the video?
03/06/2010 09:07:45 PM
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i've seen both videos, and they both begin in the middle of the confrontation
04/06/2010 01:28:24 AM
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No, they don't
04/06/2010 05:58:40 AM
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actually, yes they do. but you will obviously not understand so i am done. *NM*
04/06/2010 07:53:40 AM
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I think his point
04/06/2010 02:40:43 PM
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Oh, I get that
04/06/2010 03:18:36 PM
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Re: Oh, I get that
04/06/2010 03:25:05 PM
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Re: Oh, I get that
04/06/2010 04:43:35 PM
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Re: Oh, I get that
04/06/2010 04:58:04 PM
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Not what I said
04/06/2010 05:38:30 PM
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Re: Not what I said
04/06/2010 05:41:06 PM
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Re: Not what I said
04/06/2010 05:53:16 PM
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Re: Not what I said
04/06/2010 05:57:34 PM
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Still not understanding
04/06/2010 06:16:04 PM
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Re: Still not understanding
04/06/2010 06:17:34 PM
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That's silly
03/06/2010 04:28:34 PM
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i know the helicopters were not gunships, but there is such a thing as aggressive flying
03/06/2010 04:32:18 PM
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You've GOT to be joking
03/06/2010 09:02:35 PM
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i've already conceded the point, there is no need for insults please
04/06/2010 01:30:08 AM
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When I insult you - don't worry, you'll know
04/06/2010 06:02:25 AM
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yes i want to watch "boring helicopter flying"
04/06/2010 07:51:16 AM
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Well this should sort out part of the dispute
04/06/2010 06:56:17 PM
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Re: Well this should sort out part of the dispute
04/06/2010 07:03:15 PM
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Interesting, but not surprising
04/06/2010 07:10:41 PM
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Re: Interesting, but not surprising
04/06/2010 07:14:51 PM
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They have to bite though - that's the problem
04/06/2010 08:24:17 PM
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Only if they want to maintain the blockade, which they shouldn't.
04/06/2010 11:37:40 PM
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I kind of doubt that the Israelis killed by Iranian rockets would be for lifting it.
05/06/2010 06:27:05 AM
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Dead people aren't generally for anything, I dare say.
05/06/2010 10:38:54 AM
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Might be a plan
06/06/2010 12:28:36 AM
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almost all weapons smuggled into gaza come from the tunnels under the current land barriers
06/06/2010 12:54:12 AM
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Mmmhmmmm
07/06/2010 08:25:09 AM
- 1183 Views
are you so blinded to think it would not be paraded as proof the blockade is working?
07/06/2010 08:48:25 AM
- 1229 Views
You should really Google before making such statements
07/06/2010 08:50:52 PM
- 1562 Views
interesting how only one of those was direct to gaza. and that was in 2001....
07/06/2010 11:45:14 PM
- 1093 Views
First you say that there was nothing
08/06/2010 05:30:29 AM
- 1041 Views
sounds like you think the blockade is working
07/06/2010 02:13:36 PM
- 1328 Views
what is it that you think the blockade is designed to do?
07/06/2010 04:25:39 PM
- 1265 Views
I would guess it has two main goals
07/06/2010 09:01:03 PM
- 1254 Views
well, here's how i see it, and i know we're probably going to disagree...
08/06/2010 02:02:32 AM
- 1780 Views
that would be treating this like an insurgency where you want to win hearts and minds
08/06/2010 05:11:39 PM
- 1805 Views
And then there is this
04/06/2010 07:04:50 PM
- 1255 Views
what do you want to bet who started the violence suddenly won't matter
04/06/2010 07:07:17 PM
- 1257 Views