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Ta'veren is not a power, it is an accomodation with what the Pattern demands of certain people Cannoli Send a noteboard - 12/04/2010 02:56:57 PM
Except that half of Hawkwing's greatness had to do with his supernatural power that bent reality to his will. Even if this is excusable, after his first wife died he became a tyrant and it was only through the intervention of his second wife that the world survived his wrath. Secondly, he became a puppet for one of the Forsaken, and died a madman.


His tyranny is only called such because it was out of character for HIM. By anyone else's standards it was business as usual, and the only evidence that he is the puppet of a Forsaken is the vainglorious boasting of nihilistic villain afflicted with three thousand years of exposure to the True Power, drawn from the same evil as the taint that drives saidin weilders mad. Ba'alzamon's bragging is not a remotely credible source. All things being equal, it is just as likely that HE was the one being bent to the other's will.

As for the issue of ta'veren, it is no different than the special protections other kings get with the divine right and so on. Given that all known ta'veren have been extraordinarily talented individuals it is as likely that his personal qualities resulted in his being picked out for greatness as the candidate who could best serve whatever purpose the Pattern had in mind (IMO, uniting humanity to forestall the Trolloc Wars 2), as that his achievements are based solely on some superpowered boost.

Actually, the ta'veren factor works even more to his credit, because the expansionist conqueror seldom makes for a good ruler. As we know from the books however, a ta'veren is driven along his course and must achieve what the Pattern wants him to or die. Hawkwing, according to his biography, was a good ruler who was content to stay at home and tend his nation, but was driven to conquest by necessity, implicitly by the mandate of the Pattern, and explicitly by the hostility of the White Tower.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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The greatest King in Fantasy - 09/04/2010 05:18:42 AM 1894 Views
King Arthur. Hands down. - 09/04/2010 06:40:15 AM 1271 Views
I would argue with you. - 09/04/2010 06:54:53 AM 1238 Views
That's the point, though. Arthur's humanity is what makes him so admirable. - 09/04/2010 06:59:07 AM 1275 Views
I have to agree with Dannymac - 09/04/2010 02:04:44 PM 1270 Views
But he's not in a modern fantasy novel. - 09/04/2010 07:37:14 PM 1287 Views
when I read the actual book... - 10/04/2010 12:08:21 AM 1291 Views
I'm going with the most likely historical version of King Arthur - 09/04/2010 06:45:26 PM 1320 Views
My money is still on Aragorn - 09/04/2010 12:47:43 PM 1383 Views
Aragorn is so awesome... - 09/04/2010 02:05:42 PM 1250 Views
Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though. - 09/04/2010 02:18:30 PM 1214 Views
Re: Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though. - 09/04/2010 02:49:45 PM 1271 Views
Hm - 09/04/2010 03:23:53 PM 1322 Views
Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien. - 09/04/2010 03:32:00 PM 1219 Views
Re: Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien. - 09/04/2010 03:45:37 PM 1479 Views
I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 04:34:15 PM 1320 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 04:55:34 PM 1215 Views
If Tacitus and Graves were accurate - 09/04/2010 05:09:20 PM 1307 Views
Re: If Tacitus and Graves were accurate - 09/04/2010 05:26:43 PM 1225 Views
I rather liked her depiction in Rome. - 09/04/2010 05:34:37 PM 1310 Views
Re: I rather liked her depiction in Rome. - 09/04/2010 05:45:06 PM 1377 Views
Re: I rather liked her depiction in Rome. - 10/04/2010 11:14:26 AM 1381 Views
I don't know if I'd call it bad, per se. - 10/04/2010 11:37:55 AM 1463 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 05:02:50 PM 1268 Views
Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either. - 09/04/2010 05:31:42 PM 1234 Views
Re: Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either. - 09/04/2010 05:44:03 PM 1278 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 05:06:49 PM 1383 Views
I call bullshit - 09/04/2010 08:09:49 PM 1217 Views
Re: I call bullshit - 09/04/2010 08:31:16 PM 1236 Views
Re: I call bullshit - 10/04/2010 08:04:15 AM 1322 Views
I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist. - 10/04/2010 05:12:07 PM 1316 Views
Re: I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist. - 12/04/2010 11:00:23 AM 1190 Views
Exactly. - 13/04/2010 03:08:46 AM 1297 Views
Re: Exactly. - 13/04/2010 08:54:01 AM 1360 Views
I was going to say something similar. - 09/04/2010 03:21:45 PM 1237 Views
Re: Aragorn is so awesome... - 09/04/2010 08:00:25 PM 1233 Views
Re: Aragorn is so awesome... - 09/04/2010 08:37:12 PM 1243 Views
He's good, but then he just doesn't have to face so many things. - 09/04/2010 02:22:04 PM 1517 Views
Doesn't have to face many things? - 09/04/2010 07:59:27 PM 1287 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 09/04/2010 08:38:51 PM 1126 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 10/04/2010 08:24:33 AM 1221 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 10/04/2010 05:08:42 PM 1386 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 12/04/2010 10:55:12 AM 1188 Views
He really wasn't a king in majority of the story though - 12/04/2010 05:54:23 PM 1181 Views
I'm sure there are many, but one coming to mind is Prince Josua from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn - 09/04/2010 02:23:57 PM 1235 Views
Oh yeah I liked him a lot *NM* - 09/04/2010 04:09:59 PM 587 Views
Josua Lackhand is a great fantasy King! - 09/04/2010 05:14:39 PM 1298 Views
Arutha was never King. *NM* - 09/04/2010 07:18:30 PM 558 Views
I'm going to go with a tie... - 09/04/2010 04:22:42 PM 1254 Views
Joffrey and the Stag! *NM* - 09/04/2010 09:53:56 PM 561 Views
ROFL *NM* - 09/04/2010 11:39:36 PM 537 Views
Artur Hawkwing - 10/04/2010 03:34:02 AM 1394 Views
??? - 10/04/2010 10:30:13 AM 1646 Views
Ta'veren is not a power, it is an accomodation with what the Pattern demands of certain people - 12/04/2010 02:56:57 PM 1227 Views
Simba *NM* - 10/04/2010 08:40:38 AM 608 Views
Manwe - 10/04/2010 10:31:54 AM 1547 Views
Bah. He's hardly a character. *NM* - 12/04/2010 01:07:29 AM 688 Views
Arutha, the Prince of Krondor - 12/04/2010 01:06:14 AM 1298 Views
Westley - 13/04/2010 02:59:36 AM 1238 Views
Leto Atreides II - 13/04/2010 05:07:29 AM 1193 Views
I'll agree with that! *NM* - 13/04/2010 11:33:10 AM 560 Views

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