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If Tacitus and Graves were accurate imlad Send a noteboard - 09/04/2010 05:09:20 PM
If "I, Claudius" and it's source material are accurate depictions of the character of Livia, she was an evil EVIL b:censored:h of epic proportions, making maybe even Cersei Lannister seem like a sweet person.


That's all I meant by my statement. His writing reflects the times, but moreso in a very conservative community. I feel like he has as many influential women in his story as there are powerful women in classical history.Luthien, Galadriel, Eowyn to history's Cleopatra, Jeanne-Antoinette Poisson, Octavia Augusta, Elizabeth...I mean, the goddesses are almost nonexistent in his mythology. With how heavily influences pantheotic writing is by ancient Greece and Rome, you'd think he would have a couple of goddesses that stand out a bit; the best that can be said for most of the women (namely the goddesses, because we don't see many others) in the series is they serve as companions to powerful/influential men. Sad really.

Don't get me wrong though, I love Tolkien.


I think the most-mentioned Vala in the books has to be Elbereth/Varda, and Yavanna is important as well. They're not really active in battle of course, but Elbereth is mentioned as being the Vala most hated/feared by Melkor/Morgoth. And then there's Melian, Luthien's mother, who after all is a Maia on a level with Sauron. Melian is companion to Thingol, yeah, but it's obvious that she's both wiser and more powerful than he.

Edit: By the way, I'm not sure which Octavia you mean by Octavia Augusta, but surely Livia and Agrippina - or, in a very different style, Fulvia - were more influential regardless.



I meant Livia Augusta, not Octavia, sorry. I was not thinking and immediately putting the subordinate form of Octavius for hers...talk about sexism :P.. Livia was one fairly influential woman. I mean, what other matron was made a Vestal Virgin and nominated for pater patriae post mortem by the senate?
Death to the Regressives of the GOP and the TeaParty. No mercy for Conservatives. Burn them all at the stake for the hateful satanists they are.
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The greatest King in Fantasy Dannymac - 09/04/2010 05:18:42 AM 1816 Views
King Arthur. Hands down. Ghavrel - 09/04/2010 06:40:15 AM 1211 Views
I would argue with you. Dannymac - 09/04/2010 06:54:53 AM 1161 Views
That's the point, though. Arthur's humanity is what makes him so admirable. Ghavrel - 09/04/2010 06:59:07 AM 1208 Views
I have to agree with Dannymac LadyLorraine - 09/04/2010 02:04:44 PM 1204 Views
But he's not in a modern fantasy novel. Ghavrel - 09/04/2010 07:37:14 PM 1225 Views
when I read the actual book... LadyLorraine - 10/04/2010 12:08:21 AM 1219 Views
"The actual character"? Which of the countless different ones? *NM* Legolas - 10/04/2010 12:21:00 AM 547 Views
i mean the actual character of Arthur in the actual book. LadyLorraine - 10/04/2010 12:51:44 AM 1289 Views
There isn't an "actual book." Le Morte d'Arthur is a relatively early compilation of legends. *NM* Ghavrel - 10/04/2010 03:09:40 AM 589 Views
Re: i mean the actual character of Arthur in the actual book. Camilla - 10/04/2010 08:17:12 AM 1223 Views
I'm going with the most likely historical version of King Arthur RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/04/2010 06:45:26 PM 1252 Views
My money is still on Aragorn Camilla - 09/04/2010 12:47:43 PM 1325 Views
Aragorn is so awesome... LadyLorraine - 09/04/2010 02:05:42 PM 1174 Views
Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though. Legolas - 09/04/2010 02:18:30 PM 1146 Views
Re: Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 02:49:45 PM 1206 Views
Hm nossy - 09/04/2010 03:23:53 PM 1258 Views
Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien. Legolas - 09/04/2010 03:32:00 PM 1158 Views
Re: Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 03:45:37 PM 1411 Views
I can't agree about the goddesses. Legolas - 09/04/2010 04:34:15 PM 1285 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 04:55:34 PM 1150 Views
If Tacitus and Graves were accurate imlad - 09/04/2010 05:09:20 PM 1234 Views
Re: If Tacitus and Graves were accurate lyringlas - 09/04/2010 05:26:43 PM 1168 Views
I rather liked her depiction in Rome. Legolas - 09/04/2010 05:34:37 PM 1233 Views
Re: I rather liked her depiction in Rome. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 05:45:06 PM 1302 Views
Re: I rather liked her depiction in Rome. Camilla - 10/04/2010 11:14:26 AM 1321 Views
I don't know if I'd call it bad, per se. Legolas - 10/04/2010 11:37:55 AM 1399 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 05:02:50 PM 1202 Views
Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either. Legolas - 09/04/2010 05:31:42 PM 1159 Views
Re: Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either. lyringlas - 09/04/2010 05:44:03 PM 1202 Views
Nienna, the Valier of Mercy, was single and a wanderer. She's not the most powerful, but... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/04/2010 06:55:23 PM 1206 Views
Re: Nienna, the Valier of Mercy, was single and a wanderer. She's not the most powerful, but... lyringlas - 09/04/2010 07:04:37 PM 1223 Views
thought of a better example: Arien the Maia of the Sun was single and far more powerful than Tilion RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/04/2010 09:17:34 PM 1459 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. imlad - 09/04/2010 05:06:49 PM 1317 Views
That was my first assumption too, but evidently not. *NM* Legolas - 09/04/2010 05:22:39 PM 537 Views
I changed it to Livia Augusta Sheesh, you people-- a guy mistypes one time!! *NM* lyringlas - 09/04/2010 05:29:03 PM 586 Views
I call bullshit Camilla - 09/04/2010 08:09:49 PM 1153 Views
Re: I call bullshit lyringlas - 09/04/2010 08:31:16 PM 1173 Views
Re: I call bullshit Camilla - 10/04/2010 08:04:15 AM 1253 Views
I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist. lyringlas - 10/04/2010 05:12:07 PM 1250 Views
Re: I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist. Camilla - 12/04/2010 11:00:23 AM 1120 Views
Exactly. Comet Sedai - 13/04/2010 03:08:46 AM 1219 Views
Re: Exactly. Camilla - 13/04/2010 08:54:01 AM 1297 Views
I was going to say something similar. nossy - 09/04/2010 03:21:45 PM 1180 Views
Re: Aragorn is so awesome... Camilla - 09/04/2010 08:00:25 PM 1167 Views
Re: Aragorn is so awesome... lyringlas - 09/04/2010 08:37:12 PM 1176 Views
He's good, but then he just doesn't have to face so many things. Legolas - 09/04/2010 02:22:04 PM 1478 Views
Doesn't have to face many things? Camilla - 09/04/2010 07:59:27 PM 1221 Views
As in, there are many important aspects of being king he doesn't have to face. Legolas - 09/04/2010 08:07:16 PM 1201 Views
well technically speaking he WAS the king when he did all those things. LadyLorraine - 10/04/2010 12:15:26 AM 1206 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? lyringlas - 09/04/2010 08:38:51 PM 1058 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? Camilla - 10/04/2010 08:24:33 AM 1164 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? lyringlas - 10/04/2010 05:08:42 PM 1309 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? Camilla - 12/04/2010 10:55:12 AM 1156 Views
He really wasn't a king in majority of the story though random thoughts - 12/04/2010 05:54:23 PM 1108 Views
I'm sure there are many, but one coming to mind is Prince Josua from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn Legolas - 09/04/2010 02:23:57 PM 1167 Views
Oh yeah I liked him a lot *NM* ironclad - 09/04/2010 04:09:59 PM 552 Views
Josua Lackhand is a great fantasy King! imlad - 09/04/2010 05:14:39 PM 1228 Views
Arutha was never King. *NM* Myrdhyn - 09/04/2010 07:18:30 PM 533 Views
I'm going to go with a tie... Myrdhyn - 09/04/2010 04:22:42 PM 1187 Views
Rohan was a whiny hypocritical bitch who failed at the only real test of rulership he ever faced. Cannoli - 10/04/2010 02:51:34 AM 1228 Views
That actually slipped my mind. I can't believe that. Myrdhyn - 16/04/2010 04:44:46 PM 1263 Views
Joffrey and the Stag! *NM* Kotagg - 09/04/2010 09:53:56 PM 533 Views
ROFL *NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 09/04/2010 11:39:36 PM 507 Views
Artur Hawkwing Cannoli - 10/04/2010 03:34:02 AM 1322 Views
Alexander the Great? *NM* Ghavrel - 10/04/2010 05:08:25 AM 560 Views
AH conquered more, did better, & was not a huge d-bag. Alex would have commissioned that big statue *NM* Cannoli - 12/04/2010 03:00:39 PM 540 Views
And both managed to have their so-called "empires" crumble within a year of their death. *NM* Ghavrel - 12/04/2010 06:12:20 PM 546 Views
Which just reinforces how awesome AH was - no one else could do what he did Cannoli - 13/04/2010 11:50:54 AM 1250 Views
??? Sidious - 10/04/2010 10:30:13 AM 1570 Views
Ta'veren is not a power, it is an accomodation with what the Pattern demands of certain people Cannoli - 12/04/2010 02:56:57 PM 1164 Views
Simba *NM* BlackAdder - 10/04/2010 08:40:38 AM 580 Views
Manwe Sidious - 10/04/2010 10:31:54 AM 1472 Views
Bah. He's hardly a character. *NM* AgentOrange - 12/04/2010 01:07:29 AM 661 Views
Arutha, the Prince of Krondor AgentOrange - 12/04/2010 01:06:14 AM 1230 Views
Westley Comet Sedai - 13/04/2010 02:59:36 AM 1157 Views
Leto Atreides II random thoughts - 13/04/2010 05:07:29 AM 1123 Views
I'll agree with that! *NM* imlad - 13/04/2010 11:33:10 AM 533 Views
What's the name of the Lemur-thing that's the King in "the penguins of madagascar"? He gets my vote! *NM* Mjolner - 14/04/2010 04:46:42 AM 589 Views
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